Agreeing to Disagree: How to Handle Conflicting Values and Beliefs in a Diverse World

I like football.
I like dolls.
Why don't you like football? You should like it more.
Well, you should like dolls more. Let's agree to disagree.
My name is Mike.
It's Yuen.
Welcome to The Imperfect Clinician.
Do you like going to debates?
I do like going to debates.
And I do think it might be quite difficult to discuss things with me.
Is it difficult for you?
I think it depends on which mood you're in.
Sometimes you want to be devil's advocate.
Sometimes you just want to just put this banner in things.
And when you're in that mode,
it's a good practice for me to gain so much distance from it that I don't just erupt.
I think I like to debate or discuss because it allows me to know more about the other.
So it comes from the point of curiosity.
And I like to sometimes throw something that's not necessarily the most popular belief
or that is something a bit more controversial.
Not because I might necessarily...
No, I usually feel that way all around.
But sometimes, you know, you turn it up a notch
just to see what other person's reaction is going to be.
Sometimes saying things that may not necessarily be expected,
they allow me to see how people are responding
or whether they are genuine when they're talking to me, I guess.
So would you say it's quite common to see this agreement
in your experience at work or in a social setting?
In general, let me start with the statement that I think I'm quite an agreeable person.
And I think that I am quite diverse in my opinions to accept a lot of different point of views,
because I know that they are not necessarily my point of views.
I want at least people to question what they're saying,
because I constantly question myself as well, and I'm wrong as well.
So I don't necessarily think that arguing or putting across a different point of view is unhealthy.
I think that it is adding to the debate by highlighting other point of view.
And I think that through discussion, you are able to learn more about the situation.
If you have everybody around you that are just nodding their heads and saying,
yes, you are the only one that doesn't make any mistakes, that you are always right,
then it makes me choose those people less.
So when I come across people who are constantly trying to prove to me that whatever I say is a
gospel, whatever I'm going to come up with, in those circumstances, I even like to throw
something a little bit off the pitch and I'm not necessarily convinced or something that is a pure
fabrication, just to see how people are going to accept it.
Because I want people to think for themselves, I want people to have an opinion.
I think it's very important to learn and it's a very important part of growth.
I like to challenge, I like to test, because how are we going to get better if our views
are not put to some sort of verification?
So do you think more so now compared to ever that we are stunting our growth because
it's easier in all aspects of life, whether it's physically or virtually,
to be surrounded by echo chambers, by people who potentially agree with what you're thinking?
I think it's not very beneficial for our personal growth.
It's like there is this old joke that what gets you through the happy marriage,
there are two words that take you through the happy marriage, the yes dear.
And you can have a very nice long marriage, happy, probably only for one side though,
when you just keep saying yes dear, yes dear.
You have to have an opinion and we have to accept the fact that other people have got different
views and different opinions.
I mean, for me, I stand from the point of curiosity.
Every time I'm listening to others, I just want to find out.
People have different experiences and I want to learn from them.
This is why I find it very beneficial, you know, when you travel wherever or when you
speak to people, I prefer to when I'm going anywhere abroad or even in this country or
wherever, just to see what people have to say rather than seeing the same sort of sites and,
you know, tourist attractions or whatever.
I'd rather find somebody, talk to them and see what the life is for them.
You know, how can they benefit from the surroundings, the friends, their life experiences.
Okay.
So I think it's not very common to see someone like you, where you embrace the discomfort
because changing your mind is extremely difficult, especially when it affects your own,
I guess, values or how you see yourself and how you define yourself.
It can make people feel quite defensive and perhaps quite lost.
Why?
Because you're open to what they have to say?
Because when you are engaged in a debate, a lot of the times
I see that it happens because one party is trying to change the other party's mind.
Yeah, because you feel that you're right.
Yes.
Instead of the, I disagree with you on this matter, but let's have the discussion not
to change each other's mind.
Let's have the discussion to understand your perspective better.
I want to know where you're coming from.
And for you to know where I'm coming from and that is it.
Like you said, more for the understanding perspective than trying to gain something
out of that.
Yeah.
But I think that there is a, probably, I don't think that I'm perfect at what I'm doing,
but what I also notice is when I'm talking to people who are close to my heart, like
you, like my children, like my parents, that can be a little bit different because you
care more.
Care in a different way, probably.
Have less distance in a situation?
Have less distance, yeah.
Because it sort of, in a tangible way, affects you.
And I do agree that sometimes trying to put your own, you know, right things into somebody's
head is a priority.
I mean, not at all cost because we usually come to some sort of agreement or agreement
to disagree, but I think it's harder to accept others' point of view if it's completely
different to yours, of course, when the relationship is much stronger with that person.
Yeah, and I think it's, in every setting, it's harder.
I think, like you said, in a close-knitted family relationship, you don't have that choice
because, you know, it's people around you.
Yes, but I think there's also one more thing here.
I think it's because when you're talking to others, even your friends and, you know, your
work colleagues, for example, those arguments, you know, discussions, you were saying, are
not necessarily very personal.
And when you're talking to people who are close to you, those discussions have way more
personal baggage and the distance is shorter.
And when you're surrounded by, you know, family, these are the people that you have.
So choices in that is quite limited because they're your parents, they're your family.
However, when you are surrounded by friends, even work colleagues, for me, I need to take
the extra effort to find people to have a different mindset because I want to broaden
my perspective and to learn to be comfortable when my thoughts are being challenged in a
constructive way because very easily, I guess, the brain sees it as a threat.
When I step into a situation where, you know, people around me don't agree with what I'm
saying, then I wouldn't want to be in that situation.
I would want to reduce the interaction, but by doing so, I feel that it doesn't stretch
me as much.
But I'm a bit different.
I think I'm the other way around.
I think that having discussions with you is stretching me further than having discussion
with others just because of this proximity of relationship effect.
So you are close to me, so I care about you more and what you say have different weight.
Okay, all right.
I may not necessarily agree with you all the time, but I'm learning your point of view
and I'm probably more likely to adopt it myself than if I'm talking to somebody else and we
have a discussion, especially in a professional manner when we have something, a clinical
discussion or whatever.
That's, you know, evidence-based.
And if you present me with the evidence, I am very happy to use this as advice to my
patients if it does make sense.
We have our sort of trained, slightly, you know, evidence-based brains.
Do you know what I mean?
We seem to understand what makes clinical sense and we know where to find the answers
that would back it up because the advice changes.
You know, the research progresses and you all of a sudden find out that, well, actually
there was more research done on X, Y and Z and the indications have, you know, expanded
or narrowed down or we know more about how to warn the patient.
So you create your discussion around it.
And when you're talking to other clinicians that might have come across that first, it's
something that puts me in a position of curiosity.
Now, I want to know more.
I struggle when there is something new that I found out myself and there are other clinicians
other in general, you know, people who are involved in patient's care that they don't
have that much curiosity that would allow them to, you know, to find out themselves.
Okay.
That will come and question you.
Okay.
Like with a simple, I don't know, change of guidelines regarding iron.
Okay.
Yes, I know I'm up to date.
I've found out about it because I follow it because I heard it from someone and I think
it's a good practice to spread the guidelines to reduce the dose from three times a day
to once a day because there is limited benefit comparing to the risk of side effects, for
example, when you increase the dose.
So that for me makes sense.
And when you talk to others and say, yeah, but this is a patient's need and that's
how we're going to, you know, I think that there are probably when you're doing the
research, you have got a lot of people involved who are probably altogether smarter than me.
Okay.
Because they set out to do a research and whatever it is and to prove their certain
point.
Okay.
So I take it as not necessarily as gospel again, but with my critical thinking, it's
something that I can agree with.
Yeah.
Because I see the effects of, you know, the side effects of the silly iron tablets, you
know, on people and they get constipated.
So what happens if it's not a clinical conversation and it's more of a, I don't know,
social politics or what are your thoughts or your opinions?
On this, you see, this is the thing.
I think they're all opinions and there is little evidence-based in that.
I mean, whether it's a discussion about feelings, emotions, politics, music, you know,
trying to argue with band is better or who has better voice and horses for courses.
People do have different ideas of what's beautiful to them, other ideas of what's
beneficial to others or to themselves.
And I'm happy to understand that people can have different opinions because I'm, I
think I'm quite opinionated on certain things, you know, when it comes to talking
about, I don't know, religion or art or something that is less solid.
Okay.
Yeah.
I think everybody's entitled to their own opinion.
I like to question certain points of view because I'm curious about how others would
respond to certain things that are obvious to me.
Okay.
And I want to find out why certain obvious things for them are obvious for them.
Whereas you can easily question them.
That's a decision about, you know, politics or about religion, for example.
Okay.
There are certain, you know, there is a God, there isn't a God.
Okay.
Prove one through and, you know, it's, it's a decision why certain obvious things for
one people are not as obvious for others.
And I think the mechanism of questioning that just makes us ask more questions.
And I think asking questions, it's what is the basis of critical thinking?
And that's something that progresses us as people who are not necessarily, you know,
doubting everything that's happening around them, but just to get to know not only their
own whys, but the universe wise, I guess, you know, the world wise, why does things
happen like this?
Why do people believe in that?
Why do people think that, you know?
And quite a few comments from our listeners mentioned the difficulty in having difficult
conversations, whether it's in a personal social setting or in a workplace setting.
What do you think about that?
I think that, well, there is a difference.
For me, there is a difference between your, like I said before, it is a question of a
distance to the person, emotional distance to the person that you're talking to.
It was very difficult for me to have a serious discussion with, for example, my, I think
parents are a good example because we are taught not to question whatever they say.
And they very often come from the position of, we know better because you're younger,
less experienced.
I've seen more in my life, but I think me now as a parent, I think my role based on
my experience with my parents is to make sure that my kids ask more questions and essentially
question everything because that's going to create their own experiences.
If they take everything with gospel, even though it's going to pain me because they're
going to question me, why do I do certain things?
Why do I say certain things?
And, but I will still stand by the fact that we should encourage kids to ask and question
everything, question not only what we say, but also what they read at every point of
their education and every point of the relationships with others, because that's going to ultimately
make them more better critically thinking and more independent in their judgments.
So let me flip it on its head, because I can see that you're not somebody who shies away
from difficult situation or difficult conversation.
Not now.
Why and what helps you?
Why do you have the ability to deal with it?
Because for lots of people, having an argument is quite difficult.
Starting an argument or voice their disagreement is quite a difficult step to take, whether
it's in a workplace or whether it's in a social setting.
And you seem to have that.
So what helped you?
I think the distance and realizing that I think let's start from the very beginning.
I love people.
I love people for what they are.
I respect people because everybody has got their own story.
Everybody has got something to say.
Everybody has got different experiences.
So once we get this out of the way, I like to think that any discussion that we have
in is discussion about opinions, and it doesn't reflect on how I feel about that person.
I still respect them.
I still love them.
I still think that everybody is valuable and everybody is necessary.
And of course, there are certain things that I will always condemn.
If you have really pathological behaviour, somebody praising bullying or doing something
that's really nasty towards others.
There is no regret.
I will always criticize that and I will always call it out because I think if I'm in a position
feeling brave enough to call it out and I don't do it, I feel responsible for cultivating
those behaviours.
And I understand that people may not have that much power of discussion to or might
be scared for any other reason that will not call out bad behaviour.
And I want to say that it's my responsibility if I only can do it because there will be
situations that I will not be able to do it myself because I will be scared.
I will be not in a position where I could discuss that.
And I hope that there will be others that will be stronger than me.
So from that, I notice a few things that you've mentioned in terms of the things that helped
you, a skill that you've acquired.
One is the ability to have a distance from the situation in terms of distance of you
and the distance of the other person.
It's almost like it's human against the issue instead of me against you.
Yeah, because I think it's important for me to make sure that if we're having a discussion,
it's not personal.
I'm attacking your behaviours.
I'm attacking the guilt and not shaming you.
Yes, and that's one thing.
The other thing I've noticed is you don't let it change the perception of each other.
So you said, whatever comes out of it, I still feel that you are X, Y, and Z.
That doesn't change.
And a lot of the time, it's the fear of that that stops people from saying something or
doing something because I don't want to be deemed as not a nice person.
I don't want to be deemed as the person who starts a difficult conversation.
And I think the third part of it is I want to say that the confidence that you have where
you go, it doesn't matter how I deal with it, whether it comes out positive or neutral or
negative, it will still create that learning opportunity for all parties involved.
Yeah, I hope so.
I truly hope that it does because that's how we grow.
And saying that, I think if people choose not to grow, not to progress and to be entrenched,
you know, in the whatever on the top of the tree and they don't want to come down to have
a discussion, that's what I will always question.
But it doesn't question the person.
It's question their choices because I think that inherently we are good.
And I think that everybody has the chance to be good.
It's just good varies from person to person.
Everybody has a different opinion.
What does being good actually mean?
Yeah.
And I think what we talked about reminded me of Adam Grant's quote.
He said, so many people prefer the comfort of conviction than the discomfort of doubt.
And I really resonated with that because when people question you, whether it's your action
or your choices or what you say, the first thing is to fight, to defend instead of the
harder thing to do is interesting.
Tell me more.
Yes, but we always going back to what we were saying previously, you always respond with
emotions and there's always, when you attack somebody, when you throw an opinion on somebody
or on certain things that they did, you are sometimes expecting to fight.
And I'm happy to give that fight, but I will also do every effort to explain what is the
point of view and trying to understand that because you want to defend yourself, you know,
you don't want to, if you have certain values, if somebody is going to question them, you
want to, and it's a natural reaction.
I don't think we should particularly shy away from it.
No matter how affecting for, if people are proposing that I am so-and-so, then let me
first tell them that I am so-and-so for that reason, okay, be prepared to fight.
If you're, you know, coming to a gunfight with a knife, it's your own fault, you know.
Yeah, but also I think it's important to say that disagreement is healthy.
I think it's healthy and I think it's revealing and I think it's also through disagreement,
you tend to learn people's true motives and perception of life.
I agree and I think especially if you are involved in a disagreement that is done in
a very constructive manner, then we should welcome it as a gift almost to sharpen our
mind and our verbal skills.
True, but I'll tell you what is my fault.
When I'm arguing with someone or having, you know, having a go at someone because somebody
had a go at me, immediately or soon after, or as we are in the process, I'm trying to
make up excuses for them and try to understand why they are behaving that way, you know,
have they got experience that led them to the point that they are so, I don't know, vocal
about a certain thing.
Is there anything in there or bringing or something?
I'm just immediately trying to find excuses, trying to find explanation, maybe not excuses,
but explanation for what is truly ruining those emotions.
You're trying to understand where they're coming from.
Yeah, trying to understand and I can still be in a fighting mode and I can still, you
know, argue with them, but I will make this effort because as I say, I think that everybody
is important, but what is not important is certain bullish behaviours that should be,
you know, eradicated.
And I think this is something that I don't see in you is when you have the debate, you're
not in it to win.
Like I told you so.
No, I don't feel like I'm always have to have the last word comparing to you.
I'm working on it.
Yeah, when we have in the discussion, even though, you know, we can talk for a very long
time and all that, but you always like to have the last, I don't strive for it.
That's not my ambition.
It's not my ambition very often to change your thinking.
My ambition is to just explain myself, my reasoning behind my point of view.
So I'm more doing it for myself than to change you or to, you know, I'm trying to explain
myself or trying to for you to understand where I'm coming from.
I'm not trying to make you think exactly the same.
And I think this is the key where in a discussion, you are able to go into the discussion with
an open mind and not ended up with, you know, with the enemy for life.
Yeah.
I think that it still allows you a bit of space to come back to discussion in the future
because you're not necessarily trying to convince people that earth is flat, you know.
So when you're talking about changing other people's mind, done by others is really hard.
What do you think about changing your mind yourself?
Because I think changing minds are really hard regardless of where it's coming from,
whether it's internally or whether it's externally.
I probably guess that when it's done externally, we fight back more.
But in general, when we have this cognitive dissonance, our brain just don't like it.
It wants to fight back.
I guess.
And I think I would consider myself as quite open-minded, but relatively opinionated person.
And I have a point of view.
I am interested in quite a lot of things and I care about a lot of things.
And I have got certain set of values, thoughts, ideas, but the thing is,
are we arguing about scientific facts, which is hard to argue about?
Okay.
You can try to counter-propose an experiment that's going to trip it up in a way,
if you're clever enough, but if we're discussing about opinions,
then I'm entitled to my opinion and I'm entitled also to express this opinion to you.
Very often when there is a discussion on political subjects or for example,
religious, because these are two most sensitive.
We are never as passionate about music and about, I don't know, art.
There is one area in few parts of the world that you would argue a lot more than about any music
or art, which is cooking.
Cooking in Italy, for example, of my experience is there are people that are prepared to go
for a fight on how you make a simple dish that is made probably in a hundred different ways,
depending on a hundred different villages that it's made in.
Okay.
But people are really going to a discussion like to a war.
Okay.
So when we're talking about religion and we're talking about politics,
these are all opinions very much.
There is very little evidence.
So it's very easy to follow both sides.
Okay.
Somebody, yes, there is a God.
Somebody says, no, there isn't a God.
Okay.
Yes.
I don't know.
Social support is good.
No, taxes is better, for example.
There are different divisions.
And I think that through having an open mind and to have an opinion or something,
it's not necessarily a bad thing.
And I don't take it personally and I hope others don't take it personally.
But the trouble is there's always in the party when you're arguing with someone,
somebody that's going to take things a little bit more personally.
Yeah, I think so.
But that hinders the discussion.
Yes.
And you can't stop that, can you?
That's that person's journey and that person's, I guess, process of learning to disagree.
But if they're happy to learn, they'll be happy to come back to it with a fresh head
and the fresh experiences and the fresh thoughts and a fresh reflection.
And like you said, not everyone has the ability or haven't yet had the practice
to have that distance from the emotions and how they react to the situation.
And so when you see those people, usually it's the emotions that are talking,
not the rational side of them, because they're responding 0.1 seconds.
Because it's just reaction.
It's explosive.
It's feelings, yeah.
It's not responding with the head.
And I think it's also what I find helpful is if I go into a room or if I go into a situation
thinking they're going to disagree with me, I'm going to go and fighting.
Even without starting any conversation, without anyone saying a word, I'm already adrenaline up.
Yes.
But that also gives you a preparation for the worst case scenario.
Like there is an old saying that if you want peace, prepare for a war.
Okay.
So if you have your guns rolled out, you don't have to use them.
It's entirely up to you how you're going to control yourself and how you're going to,
I don't know, for example, explode at the trigger.
So it's for you to harness those emotions.
But if you are prepared for it, you are always feeling more qualified to express those opinions.
So I guess then rephrasing it based on what you're saying is preparing yourself of what
if I have to defend every single thing, but also conditioning your brain to say,
I'm going in for them to understand.
I'm going in with curiosity and I would do the same for them when they're voicing their
thoughts and their opinion.
But starting with the intention of wanting to understand, but also having, like you said,
the harness, the adrenaline rush.
Because I think if we only have that, I'm going into fight, I'm going in to be defensive.
It doesn't matter what the other person say, you just close up.
You do.
And you are losing the best part of the discussion, which is open mind.
Then you close in and that's not going to help essentially anybody, no other discussion.
Yeah.
And I think certain statements help to calm, I want to say, the adrenaline rush on both
sides.
Things like, you make a good point, or I agree with you on X, Y, and Z.
Even though I disagree with you about the others, but this is something that we share
in common, for example.
And this shows that we want to believe the best about someone, or perhaps we respect
their opinion, even though we disagree.
I think it's important to go into the discussion as equals.
If you feel better than somebody else, you're going to come out as a bully.
If you're feeling worse than somebody else, you're not going to say anything.
Yeah.
And so when you say that, then the word that comes to mind is power.
I'm not hoarding power, we're sharing power in this conversation.
Because if not, if I'm yielding all the power, I'm pushing you down almost.
I am showing that mine is right and yours is wrong.
And so I think by doing that, the conversation becomes more transformational because you
strengthen the relationship, the bond between the two people, or maybe a group of people.
And you also, by doing so, understand each other better and perhaps yourself even more
so, how you deal with difficult situations like this.
And I want to say it's a skill that you have to practice that you get better when you do
more of.
Would you agree?
Definitely, yes.
And there is one more thing that I want to add.
When you are amongst the people who are having big discussions, okay, having big emotions
and big lives, I think practicing the skill of being a mediator is very beneficial because
it helps leaders to manage the expectations and manage the outcomes.
And it also allows you to, if you're, for example, working on a project and you're bouncing
ideas and one of the ideas is rubbish and people feel very personal about it, okay.
And people say, no, your idea is really, really poor.
And yeah, so I think it's quite important to manage the outcomes and manage the emotions
as a mediator of it, okay.
Somebody who is going to tone things down and bring the equal power, okay, between parties
that are involved and are fighting.
So now, how do you like the expression, let's agree to disagree?
I used to think that is good, but I know of situations where agreeing to disagree means
that somebody doesn't want to tell you what they're disagreeing on and almost like going
to wait until the situation where it gets to, I told you so.
For me, when you say, let's agree to disagree, it means I don't agree with you.
End of.
I don't agree with you.
And that's fine.
And it's okay.
And I get it, you know.
It's the same expression as some people being with all the respect, but something...
Yeah, it's just like buffering it, you don't even have to say it.
I'm not being funny, but...
And you want to be funny.
Or I don't mean to be rude, but you're going to say something rude.
Yeah, exactly.
And I think it's the same sort of canon of expressions that are just unnecessary.
And they just sound actually harder than the whole disagreement.
Or if you throw an opinion on somebody, okay, something personal and all that.
If you qualify earlier and say, I'm not being rude, but I think that what you did was...
I think that makes it worse.
I agree.
Straight to the point for me.
It's one hit, and it's not sort of a geared-up hit, you know.
So you're not priming yourself or other person for that.
I'm not being rude, but I think that...
Yes, you are rude.
You're going to be rude.
Just be rude and get over it.
Let's move on.
So we talked a lot about being deeply into discussions and about emotions and feelings
and arguing and everything else that encompasses a good verbal exchange.
And now do you think we should end this episode?
No.
Well, I think we should.
So let's agree to disagree.
We'll see you next time.
Thank you.
Bye-bye.
It's about time for Yuen Reads.
In Yuen Reads today, we explore Atomic Habits by James Clear.
If there is only one book that you read about self-improvement, pick this one.
It is ground-breaking, filled with practical tips and examples that convince us and invigorate me.
There are lots of good two-liners, examples that even now still stays on the whiteboard
in my workplace as a constant reminder.
I have it on my phone when I need a pick-me-up.
He talks about how changes made small to the atomic level will change you in every aspect.
Your career, relationship, health, and life.
And how difficult it is for our body and our brain to do it.
There's so many different hacks that he provided that you can definitely learn from.
I would suggest reading the book, chapter by chapter.
For me, I'd like to let each bit sink in and almost give myself some time
to try it and see what works better for me and what less so that I have to tweak.
Definitely, definitely recommend you to get this book.
Thank you for listening to the imperfect clinician podcast.
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