Culture in the team

Team culture. In this episode, we will talk about what it is and why it is crucial to be your priority,
whether you are leading a team or whether you are part of a team.
This is Yuen.
And Mike, welcome to The Imperfect Clinician.
Today, we're talking about team culture, and even though it's very abstract, it is crucial.
Yeah, you're right. You can't touch it, really. It's hard to measure, but there are some studies
that have shown how important it is for a team or organization to be successful.
Can you define team culture?
Yes, there are lots of different ways to define it, but the one that I found which I agree with
is the Merriam-Webster dictionary. It defines culture as the set of shared attitudes, values,
goals, and practices that characterizes an institution or an organization because
you've mentioned how important it is for success. And I think it's really important to set culture
right because it makes a huge difference in retention, employees' development,
and engagement and inclusion.
So how do you set the culture? Or if you are arriving in a team that's already established,
how do you change? Does it drift? Do you make a revolution? How do you go about it?
So I think when you step into a culture, the first thing that we all
would automatically do is to understand it first because we want to see whether it is safe.
Safe place. So when I say safe place, I mean psychologically safe. So you're able to call
out behaviors. You're able to rate any concerns. You're able to talk about easy and difficult
things. And I think this is what we would do when we step into a place with culture. Very rarely,
you have the opportunity to build it from scratch. And so in doing that, you create a culture.
I think before doing any changes, recommendation, transformation,
we need to start with understanding and then go from there.
Okay. So are there any set of values that you think are most important in setting those
common attributes of a team, of a culture in a team for you? What are the most important? What
do you focus on building first maybe? I think culture covers a lot of things. It
encompasses social behaviors, norms, alongside habits, behaviors and beliefs
of individuals in the group. And you will see languages. You will see,
what is it like when you step into it? So when you're asking me what I think
would be the first thing that I look out for was psychological safety. I said, because
when that happens, a few things come into play. So you are encouraging vulnerability. So you're
encouraging people to open up, to talk about difficult things, to talk about emotions,
to talk about breaking through barriers. It's a bit like unblocking people, allowing them to
reach their potential through self development, the personal development rather than development of,
I don't know, knowledge of what they're doing at work.
And I think also it's really important to have a culture of inclusion. So when we talk about
equality, diversity, inclusion, and then I'll come to belonging in the second, I think
when you create a culture of inclusion and tolerance, because we're in the healthcare
sector, or I should say, regardless of whether you're in the healthcare sector or not,
with empathy, it will help team building. It will help with interaction with the patient
and you are tolerant of failures. So you empower the team to be creative, to experiment,
and to build resilience when things go wrong. And I noticed it also inspires team to share ideas,
respect each other's input, and most importantly, I guess, removing blame and judgment. So
because we always learn throughout that journey, it's when you make it safe for people to make
mistakes, learn, and then move forward, it's resulted in collective growth and it's extremely
empowering. What do you think? I think absolutely. But you first, I want to ask you before I tell you
what I think it is for me, I want to tell you, where does then the fitting and belonging
come into play when we're talking about team culture? Because it can't be discussed separately,
really. I agree. That's why I'm tempted to call EDIB altogether. So equality, diversity,
inclusion, belonging, all in two on, and it shouldn't be separated. And that's where the
psychological safety come into play. Because if you are, so those of you who haven't listened to
our episode of fitting and belonging, just a brief overview, fitting in is when you have
to remove some parts of yourself or hide some parts of yourself in order to fit in the group.
Belonging is when you are fully accepted for who you are, flaws and all and differences and all.
So we can see that throughout the journey of our podcast and the subjects we were talking about,
all falls into place with all the little puzzles that we were discussing. Like discovering yourself,
like talking about fitting and belonging, like, for example, assuming best intentions, which is
great part of being in a team as well to a great extent. So we're talking as a team culture as a
collective of the features that allow the team in the atmosphere of diversity and to some extent
equality, depending on how we define it, you know, if you have leaders in the team, that's a little
bit different story, but that allows the team to chase the common purpose. Yes. Yeah. So this is
where I think for me, the definition of the team culture is that all the features that we,
that you mentioned, including the, you know, the values, the goals and communication within the
team, it all gathers around the common purpose of the team on, you know, having a direction of
travel in a way. And I guess that's where sharing a common purpose and making it explicitly clear
to the team with clear values of the team members, it wouldn't feel for the team members that you're
just setting it because you want to, they are, they are part of it. They believe in it and they
want to work towards it. How then diverse team can contribute to common values and purpose.
So I think this is quite important to understand that we are great advocates of, you know,
of diversity within a team and not only because we think that it adds to the value, but then if
you have got common values, beliefs, communication, language, and everything else that may stand in
a position with the common diversity understanding. I'll share a quote and I'll,
and I'll explain a little bit more. So the Harvard business review quote, the data shows that when
you have diversity of thought on the board, you're more efficient, more productive, and more
profitable. So when you have people of different culture, different background, that gives them
difference in perspective. And we need to ensure that we're covering as much grounds as possible
when we are planning anything, whether it's a project or whether it's going forward, we can
have a common purpose in terms of, right, this is our infinite goal. This is what we want to do
to, let's say for our patients or to address population health. But our ways of doing it
can be vastly different. And I think the different ways need to be explored, need to be understand
because the patients that we serve and the people that we work with are diverse. And so their
experience needs to be taken into account. So we can, so for team, better support them,
understanding where they're coming from, assuming best intention. And so they can be stepped up.
So like a version 2.0 almost of themselves, because they want to be better. Everyone wants to
be better. And with your support as a leader, you can help them get there. And when you do that,
people in the team want to do better for the patients in many different ways. And so
how can we cater for a diverse group of patients that we serve? It's not just one group.
When we have a diverse group of patients, the challenges that they face would be a multitude
of problems and they will be faced with intersectionality of different things. So for
example, it's not just about gender. It's not just about race. What if you have race, gender,
protected characteristics like LGBTQ plus. When you add all of that together, it creates
a different level of difficulty for patients who access healthcare, for example. Whereas if you
have somebody in the team who either possesses that knowledge or that background or have the
awareness or even if there isn't, the culture in the team is to understand and to find out more
and to accept and embrace those differences. The thing that you, the project you produce or
the plans that you want the team to do will encompass a bigger picture. And by doing that,
benefiting more patients than you would with a narrow perspective. Does that make sense?
It does make sense. And I want to expand on diversity. For me, diversity, especially in a
team, but not exclusively, I think it's about the voice, about making sure that all team members,
however different we are, because we are all different. I mean, and I'm not even talking about,
I don't know, sex, gender or color of our skin. That's on a different subject,
but we are all different. And sometimes people are more open, more closed, more withdrawn,
more, you know, it's all personalities that mix up in one team and making sure that there is a voice
and that there is access to everybody's voice and everybody has a chance to express their ideas,
thoughts, you know, comments or whatever. That's what creates the culture that allows progress.
I agree. And they need to be listened to. So if we say we're listening to your voice,
we can't just say as leaders, we need to, we need to prove to them that they are being listened to.
Okay. So we know what we would like to see in the team in our own little imperfect clinician way.
And there is always opportunity for a team to grow. There's always opportunity for a team
to develop behaviors that may not be, I don't know, desired and may not be understood. So
how do we provide an internal audit of the team? How do we potentially challenge the situations
that are happening in our opinion that might have negative impact? So I think two parts to it. One,
if you look at your team and your team or everyone in the team feels safe to actually challenge the
leader, that is a great time. It's when they're being suppressed by fear or for you to only hear,
yes, yes, yes. That's, that's when I start to think, you know, they're going to pat you on
the back for whatever you're going to do just to prevent conflict. So that's one thing I think
having, setting the culture where you have the psychological safety and the safe and brave space
for people to challenge when things are not right. I think that's a great sign. Number two, I think,
yes, because certain behaviors, whether it's intentional or unintentional can be negative.
And so I don't know whether you've heard call out behaviors. So let's say you should not be racist
and calling your behavior out, but I've heard recently of a term called call in behavior
instead of calling it out. So it stems from trying to understand. So can you tell me why
you say that or why you said that and actually hold people accountable, but start from a place
of curiosity. So not doing it in the assumption, I guess it is, you know, a bit more direct and,
you know, it's just staring a confrontation in my opinion. I want to say both are confrontational,
but perhaps coming from different source. So calling out maybe or coming up for me,
feels like you're, you know, better already feels like I don't maybe. And also I am thinking you're
doing this out of malicious intent. Whereas for me, I feel call in behaviors. It's coming from,
let me understand where you are and then let me explain to you how did that make me feel.
But in doing that, I'm still confronting you. I'm still holding you accountable,
but I'm starting from a place of curiosity.
I get the point when you're saying that it is from the point of curiosity, that's one approach,
but the approach when you say, oh, don't be racist, for example, that comes to me from
the position of assumed greater power and somebody knowing more or better about what you,
you know, it's just challenging people for, because you hold more power against them.
I don't know, you put yourself in a slightly higher position.
And maybe you are in a position of a greater power of knowledge,
but what I'm trying to see is how much I can engage. And I find that if you say,
you're racist, that's not okay. A lot of the time people then get really defensive and try to
explain their action. No, this is just people who are just going to dig into their positions
and you're not going to achieve anything. Which is why I'm more inclined to go for the
call in behavior with engagement. I can then set boundaries, accountabilities, and then
building trust, trust of people that have been hurt, because knowing that I will stand up for
myself or I will stand up for the group of people, or I will stand up for any attitude, verbal,
or physical behaviors that is not tolerated as part of the group, but also trying to
understand where they're coming from and using it as an educational opportunity.
Where would you say your team is in terms of what kind of culture is, or what level,
degree, how far you are in organizing that perfect culture in your team?
I try to do everything that I've said in today's episode about culture, but actually
only recently I got one of the best feedback that I've got from one of my team members.
She says, and I quote, she sent me like a screenshot and it says, this is what you have
achieved with our team. I love this. So the screenshot actually says eight characteristics
of high-performing team. And on that, it says purpose-driven strategy, meaning and impact,
structure and clarity, capability, dependability, culture of continuous improvement, psychological
safety, and diversity, equity, and inclusion. And that flawed me. That made me so humbled and so
grateful that what I'm trying to do by giving it language, by investing in what people say,
things that really cannot be measured. So what's the point? But for the team to see that,
for the team to feel empowered, to feel supported, and to pick something of this screenshot and send
it to me and say, this is what you've done to the team. Yeah. I know it's an ongoing process
because it's not something that you stop once you achieved it. You have, like we mentioned
in our last episode, development is ongoing. Learning is ongoing. And I still have things
either myself or people in the team can still get better at. So for me, I see it as an infinite
game. And I think, you know, when you consider culture, it's something that is, you could equal
with progress to some extent, or it's difficult to achieve a true progress in a team that would,
you know, provide like team retention and the fulfillment of the team without doing it in time.
I mean, goals come and go. The purpose prevails and the team culture, once you build it, it is
something you maintain and you deliver and you develop because it is an ongoing, there's no
end game really here. Yeah. And I think one of the things that I've been trying to emphasize is
I don't want to set up a culture of competition. I don't want to pit you against somebody else
in the team. I don't want to set a culture of comparison, but I want to set a culture
of collaboration and values and values. Yes. But I'm trying to clearly differentiate between
competition and collaboration, because when, when you start to pit one person against another,
it becomes, you will in one way or another, encourage a scarcity mindset. So it's like zero
sum you win, I lose. Whereas if you have the culture of collaboration, people always think
more outside the box, creative, working with each other. And I'll share a story actually of,
of a, by chance, it's not something that was arranged that I, I was off from flow for quite
a long time. Like it knocked me out for six completely. And so when that happened,
my team was forced or my team just stepped up. Everyone played a role. Every single person in
my team played a role to step up. And by me being off, actually it was a good opportunity
for everyone in my team to, to showcase it. Cause usually I tried to create as much opportunity
for each of them to step up in different situations. But in this occasion, because it
was a prolonged period of time that I was off from flu, it allowed them to be more cohesive
as a team, collaborating with each other, clear communication channel, helping each other out
and everything else whilst doing it safely clinically safe.
And it's amazing because then you can see that the work that you put in actually results in
more peace of mind for you and the whole team. Cause you know, it doesn't collapse if the main
part of the team, the leader is missing temporarily or, you know, or, or is gone, for
example. And then this is a big value, but can you tell me how about being competitive with
other teams? So I understand you're talking about the being competitive within team,
but what about being, are you not competitive at all?
Uh, yes we are. Um, but competitive in a way where we try to motivate ourselves to be better
and do more instead of letting it be in fear driven. So, oh, somebody's better than us.
What if we're not the best? Well, that's fine. If we're not the best now, well, we're going to get
better. But yes, we, we are competitive as a team where we go, oh, we want to be better than that
team. And that pushes us to do better. And that sounds healthy to me. I mean, you know, if, if the
team works together as a team, but still, you know, emphasizing the role of individuals, I
think it's quite important to stress that in, um, complex teams or in, you know, in people who are,
for example, working in healthcare, you have got a lot of smart people who are very strong
individuals and you need to, uh, allow that to shine as well. Cause you know, everybody, um,
plays a role and everybody who works better as an individual can contribute to the team as well.
It means people say there's no I in the team. Yeah, there is no I in the team, but there's I
in integrity. There's I in individualism. There is I in, you know, creativity. And I think that
these are the values as well, which sometimes people, you know, say, oh no, every nobody team
matters. It's just the team that matters. No, I think those times are hopefully gone and we
want to focus on individuals and we want to ensure that people are appreciated and can grow.
Yeah. And one of the most common or maybe more common now, the question that I get is how do
you build a culture whilst having somebody in the team being completely remote? So not hybrid
working where you get to still see each other face to face. Okay. So we're talking about the
challenges, how to actually do it. So I would say it is challenging. It will be more difficult,
but not impossible. So you have to put in more work to have regular communication,
communication that is of high quality, not just quantity, like we mentioned in our last episode
and engage with them. And when I say that, I don't mean just dry engaging. So I don't mean
discussing about what needs to be done for the work. It needs to be building a relationship,
personal relationship, team relationship, whatever that we're doing, include them as part of it.
And even if they are, like you said, a personality that's not very sociable or not very
chatty, draw them out as much as they can and find commonalities. So then they can be part
of the conversation. That's for sure. And there's one thing also that I wanted to ask you,
how do you feel about, especially when there's somebody new coming in about
buddying people together? Is it something that works? Is it something that is an old, you know,
old tale that should be long time forgotten? What's your take on it?
I want to say yes, because it allows them to have a point of contact and it can be that they have
multiple points of contact. So at least more than one. So having a buddy system is helpful
because the other person who they're paired with has the responsibility to check in and see how
they're getting on, whether that person is the leader of the group or whether that is an
opportunity for somebody in the team to step up and do, or whether it's a strength of somebody
in the team. And it's something that they do naturally well. Yeah, I think personally,
I agree that it can work and some people are really good at it, but I think that to
improve communication and improve the interaction between the team is good to buddy people with
different team members for a certain period of time. So they can see the diversity of the
approach of, you know, how people interact with each other, how they do their work to
enable them to create their own sort of framework for working. I want to say, what do you feel?
Yeah, I agree. I think if I have, it doesn't have to be just team members. When I'm teaching
students, for example, I let them sit in with a variety of people because they get to have a
feel of how people are doing things differently, even though it's the same profession or different
professions and they can have a gauge because they might have an idea of what they want it to be
like, but having a wider variety of what they can see, they can then build, like you said,
build their own framework to say, right, A, B, and C, I like something of that. I don't like
something of that. So I'll remove that, but it's a learning opportunity. So yes, I would agree
for them to buddy with different people is actually helpful in the long run. I think so.
Right. There is one very important part of team, because we were talking about all great
achieving and everything else, but can we go back and have a little chat about the toxic culture?
Because we do hear a lot. I mean, to be fair, you rarely hear about good things. If you hear
about something, it's something going wrong. Oh, there is, you know, toxic atmosphere. There is
toxic relationships within the team or within the organization. So how do you spot? How do you
go about it? And ultimately, how do you positively impact or influence changes in the toxic team?
What's a toxic team for you? Toxic team culture. Let's start with what toxic team culture
might look like, and then we can talk about what you can do about it when you step into it.
So for me, it's a blame culture. There is no sense of belonging people in the team. Everyone's trying
to fit in, but no one can be authentically themselves. There is no clear vision set by the
leader, and there is a general lack of vulnerability. So people can't say they're
struggling. People have to just soldier on and then eventually crack. So this is what you would
see when you step in, but maybe from the outside, you would see very poor retention. So people come
and go very quickly. There is very poor attraction because reputation grows word of mouth. No one
really wants to go there or go to that place or that organization or go to that team. And I guess
these are potential signs where you think, should I, should I not? And maybe you didn't have the
opportunity to look at all of that and by chance you step into a place with a toxic team culture
and it can be draining. Like we talked about toxic relationship in our previous episode,
I think it's important then to see what impact you can have and what aspects of it you can have
control of, because even though you want to change every single thing, it might be that you can't
straight away and it might take time. Who's responsibility is it to change things?
I want to say it's the leaders. It should start from the top. I think it should start,
but I think it's the responsibility of people who, you know, I think it is everybody because
for example, if the toxic culture results in an unsafe practice and whistleblowing,
it is everyone's responsibility to do so. However, I think it's the leader's responsibility to uphold
the culture to reflect and to constantly improve. Exactly. And so if you step into a culture like
this, it's then a conversation between, can I balance my own wellbeing against the draining
culture or against the need for me to change because with any or with challenging any systemic
inequalities or making any changes in the system, it takes time. It takes a lot of effort and you
can take a lot out of you. And so assess where you are because a lot of the time that's not the only
thing that you have on your plate. Okay. So what if the toxic is the leader?
If the leader is the toxic part of the team, is the whistleblowing the only way?
I guess whistleblowing comes when it's the worst case scenario because it's clinically
unsafe and someone's getting hurt. I would disagree. I think that
whistleblowing means, you know, going above, not necessarily when it's a complete disaster.
Sometimes, you know, sometimes, but some bad practices could be not related to the work as
such. It could be, you know, things like, I don't know, bullying or, or, or other things that may
not have direct impact on the outcome of the team. But I, I think that you could whistleblower
a lot of things about, about the leader without an impact on the outcome of the team.
Yeah, I agree. I think when you talk about bullying and harassment,
it will have impact, especially when it's done by leaders or managers, it will have
an impact on the whole team. And if you are in a place where it's done to you, please raise it,
don't suffer in silence. If you see that happening to others, I know it's easier to say,
please stand with them. But I know it might not be possible because there might be fears that
if I do that, I might lose my job and I need it to keep my family afloat. And I understand that.
This is a thing when you discuss issues of stepping up against bullying, harassment of
any sort and balancing, you know, your, what you need and what you want to do. There's sometimes
a big discrepancy because you need the job to pay the bills. You would love the job if the atmosphere
was different, if the boss was different, whatever. So does it stand in line with your
integrity, what you're going to do about it? Because you've got kids at home, you've got
mortgage to pay, and there is somebody else, for example, potentially that is being in a
disadvantaged position that is being bullied or that is being, you know, affected in, in any
other way or who doesn't have enough support that you can't personally provide, but maybe the leaders
might. Definitely agree. And that's why we hear people don't leave jobs. They leave managers
or they leave the work environment because if the environment is taking everything out of them,
they would find a different job, secure that. So at least they remove that financial concern
and move on. So let's go a little bit further. And would you say that people who are scared of
calling out bad behavior of, you know, turning the blind eye to the situations that they shouldn't
have no integrity? Well, it depends on what the system they're in is saying. So that's why I want
to come from an assumed best intention place first. I don't want to think that when people
step away, they feel comfortable. I know that when we hear shaming language, we at least cringe
internally. We might already hear or seen or experience it ourselves where it was raised
whistleblowing, like you said, but not being dealt with or being fobbed off in a way like brushed
to the carpet and not dealt with appropriately. And so when that happens repeatedly, people lose
faith in the system. And so it's not that they are stepping away. It's they don't know where else to
go. Okay. So if we wanted to go back to our team culture, last few words, I would say, make sure
you include fun in the team because sometimes things can get quite miserable. Yeah. Fun keeps
coming back in our previous episodes as well. Yeah. And I think we've mentioned who is responsible,
but I want to say everyone is responsible for others' belonging. Leaders, whether you are
listening as a leader or whether you're listening as one of the follower, leaders model that
behavior, but everyone's responsible for each other. And yeah, make sure it's fun because
humor always break through any tension, any stress, and people can lighten up and they know
there is always light at the end of the tunnel. And people can show you more of themselves when
they are being more authentic because you can't really fake laugh too much without others realizing.
That's true. And I hope that gives you all some thoughts on reflecting on your team,
your culture, either the team that you're leading or the team that you are in.
Evaluate the culture that you are in at the moment and perhaps which part that you
like and which part you think, oh, actually we can do better, or I would like to be in a better
place when I step into work next month, the next three months, six months, for example.
Yeah. So to wrap up the discussion about the team, we want to make sure that we at least
consider things like, you know, shared purpose in a team, that we embrace drawbacks, that we
look ahead to what's happening in the team. And like you said, make sure that everyone is
responsible for others' belonging. Create that spine of similar values, beliefs, and behaviors
in a team so that they become a little bit more uniform in the diverse source, in the diverse
combination of characters. And the team is as strong as individuals are within, as the people
who create the team and not necessarily strong individuals. Yeah. Every single person, not just
the selective strong individuals that you have in the team. Psychological safety, equality,
diversity, inclusion, and belonging. Mic drop. Okay. So go out there, enjoy your working in the
team. If you are working in one, if you are creating team, make sure that it is the best
place to be. And yeah, we'll see you next week. Which is our final episode of season two.
Oh, but still remember about Yuen Reads straight after that. Bye-bye.
It's about time for Yuen Reads.
Welcome to the segment of Yuen Reads. This book is called Maybe You Should Talk to Someone by
Laurie Gottlieb. Hopefully I pronounced that right. This is a book about a therapist
and her therapist. And it was hilarious. I was laughing out loud, but I was also quite
challenged by it. Felt that the question she was asking herself and the question she was asking
her therapist and the questions that she was asking her patients were actually questions
that I was asking myself. So in the middle of all that laughing and relating, it was
an eye-opening experience. And I finished a book feeling it was an exhilarated ride
with the author. But also in that ride, this is another one that I had to finish all in one go
because I couldn't wait. I'm not a very patient person. When I was in that ride with her when she
was trying to deal with her own issues, it made me see the vulnerability of a therapist. Because
I guess for me, I always see therapists as somebody who helped. And sometimes I do think,
well, what happens when therapists need other therapists for help, but never really had
the insight like this book gave me. And it was such a weave of humor, a weave of humanity,
a weave of vulnerability, a weave of self-questioning.
Believe it or not, even though it's meant to be a light read, there were some bits I highlighted
as a reminder for myself. It was a really, really enjoyable book. Something that even with a light
read that I can still learn from. And that was a pleasant surprise.
how you are now and let us know about one thing you would do differently
after listening to us. We love to hear from you. So please keep the questions coming via direct
message, email, comment, or record a voicemail on our website. We will do our best to answer
you either directly or via the podcast. Bye for now. And until next time.