Help Me, Help You: Exploring The Challenge of Asking For Help

Mike 

Can I help you? 

Yuen 

I think I'm all right. 

Mike 

Well, I can see that it really is struggling. Let me help you. 

Yuen 

No, no, no, I can manage. 

Mike 

Well, this is a very big question. How do we care? How do we help? My name is Mike. Welcome to The Imperfect Clinician. 

Yuen 

And it's Yuen. 

Mike 

Before we were. Talking quite a bit about caring, we were talking about cars. And about ourselves, we're talking about care for others. We've been discussing it even before we started to put it into our podcast about what does it mean to care? How do you care? And I think it is a huge subject. And is a huge thing to try to understand. Where do we set the boundaries? How do we care better? How to be more conscious? When we care. And how to expect the care from others I guess. Because it comes. Hand in hand with help as such. What do you think? 

Yuen 

Yeah, I think what you said about setting boundaries, they're really resonate because one of the things that I am keeping an eye out for now is if I think I'm caring for somebody, I need to be mindful that the other person doesn't perceive it. The same way. Or it might not be helpful for them in the long. 

Mike 

Run. How do you? 

Yuen 

So like you said, can can be helping for example and when I want to help somebody, usually the intention is pure. I want to help somebody out because they're in distress or I think they need help. Sometimes the type of help that they need is not communicated very clearly and so I'm not providing the help that they need and providing the help that I think they need. 

Mike 

Yeah. And that's the thing about health and such and about. What Car do we need to 1st establish? What do we need to do in order to care or help effectively? Do we need to make it known to others how we expect others to help us if we want others to care for us in the work? 

Yuen 

I think caring for others needs to be done better with communication, so by that I mean usually when something happen. From both perspective from let's say a child has fallen and you want to care for the child, you want to help the child. It's usually need your reaction to say I'll take you away from the problem or. Or we wouldn't address it because I want to make you feel better. It can be similar at work when somebody is really struggling with starting the project. My first instinct previously was to just help them get started, but the knee jerk reaction usually comes from. Feelings and not rational thought. So when I'm in that frame of mind, I notice that I'm not able to provide care help support. As you're the person. Me. So what I found is instead of going. Let me help you. Because I think that is triggered by a lot of things, but mainly fear, and it takes a lot of practise, is not easy. I tend to take a step back or force myself to breathe a little bit and say. Just put your hand to yourself and just ask do you need my? Help. What do you need me to do? Or it might be me saying let me know if. You need my help. And that is so hard to do because it's so much easier to just dive in and solve the situation. 

Mike 

You're putting responsibility on the person whom might not feel comfortable when asking for help. So you're assuming that people are going to communicate with you on the same level of understanding that you have and it's putting, you know, a responsibility to somebody who might be in desperate need of care of help of some sort, but then can have certain barriers, you know, trying to. Tackle the world on their own because they don't have a practise of asking for help. 

Yuen 

So I think what you said about the responsibility. Side of things. I feel that, let's say if I see you struggling with something and I can see that you should be doing the responsibility when I dive in and help you. I take their responsibility away from you. But by doing that, I disempower you to. 

Mike 

Learn. OK, so your attitude. In that respect, is at first. We should care about ourselves, our care. We should take very good care about ourselves. We need to be conscious of what we need. Of what. We are short of whether it's, I don't know, courage time, whatever it takes. OK, so you take upon yourself deciding on what is our happy state or what is our fulfilled state. And then if we haven't got it, then we. Make it known to others. OK, so you sort of put yourself. Is the centre of the situation, OK? We were talking about, you know, being self-compassionate in every aspect of it in the past, and it is very important to make sure that we realise when we need to look after ourselves in a way so that that sort of shows that we. May be in need of some sort of help. I mean it it doesn't necessarily have to be a physical help, it could. Be you know. 

Yuen 

I'm struggling to see the link between the situation where the responsibility is taken away from you to what you've just said. 

Mike 

Well, I think that when we are conscious of our state where we want to be, OK, so we find ourselves happy. When for example, we do certain activity, I don't know, I need to take children to school, but I am short. Time and I'm really struggling to fill this in and somebody comes in, comes along, who has kids, for example, says Ohh. Do you know what? I'm dropping mine off. I'm going to take yours off as well. So would you. Ask for that. Help. Would you realise it yourself? Cause that's going to ultimately make your life easier? Or would you wait for somebody to? Offer it to you. 

Yuen 

I'm thinking around something a little bit different. So for example you struggling to start an essay and I help you start it. By doing that, you don't learn the skill of starting something because there is a fear of making mistakes. 

Mike 

Yes, but then you know, if I want to do it because that was the situation where I was in the past, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I don't need help it. It means that maybe I feel like I should be able to do it on my own, which sometimes is very difficult for us to assess and that's why I used your help to do it. 

Yuen 

Yes, but I think there are journeys that the other party has to learn the hard way because by doing that, I don't feel that if it happens again, you've learned the skill to manage it. 

Mike 

What about if there is a situation that we are in a position that we are able to help or we want to help? And I will still asking for us to help them. Like for example, I know our parents, our children are waiting for them to assess the situation or do we step in knowing that now is the best time for us to help. 

Yuen 

There are completely two different situations there is, and I don't think it's fair to compare those two. Together, if you. 

Mike 

And fit both fit within and within caring limits. 

Yuen 

Yes, but then if you're looking at a child and it's very dependent on the child's age, I think so. If, for example, our five year olds trying to fold socks and it's taking her a while to struggling, I'm trying my best not to help her and asked whether she would help. She said no and I feel a bit better because she said no and she meant she'd do it, but the process of looking at her was painstakingly hard. But if you're talking about. Parents in our age and parents will be elderly. Their version of asking for help might be very hard, because if they needed to ask for help, I feel that that is already in dire state is based on how my parents are. That's why I feel that you're comparing apples and pear. It's. 

Mike 

Not well. I agree that these are, you know, different situations because you have got children that may not be able to fully assess the situation. But then we come across many situations where we feel like we should be able to do something and we're not. And then we need help to you know. 

Yuen 

So what you said about we should be able to do something is that not our perception of what we should do to help instead of what the other person actually asked for. 

Mike 

It's all about perception. So so this is the thing about the help and about care. Do we pursue our vision of helping others or do we try to establish what will be the best way of helping others by, you know, having a discussion how we can help people? Because I'm telling you why I'm, I'm. I'm sort of leading into this. Because when I was riding the bike this morning I was having a little think about. Care and about helping others and one thing that came to my mind is if I ask for help, does it not always, maybe sometimes, maybe sometimes not. And this is up for discussion, is it not a favour? Because if I want to offer help to somebody, that is. Without, you know, reservations you've been doing and you feel more more in control, whereas if you ask for help, if you ask somebody, can you help me do something? Is this not asking for a favour, and it is good with favours to return them? 

Yuen 

You feel more in control. OK, so I I guess, yeah. Yes, but also I think one of the biggest barrier to people asking for help and I hear it so many times across different people or those colleagues or friends or patients is in a quote. I'm happy to be the person that gives advice to other people. I'm happy for people to come to me. Talk to me about things and then my next question is then to you go and open up to other people or no because I don't feel that I can. I think besides the favours side of things that that the one of the biggest thing I feel is self. Because you see your. Role or you defined your role, you boxed it into somebody who's useful, somebody who can give advice, and I am that person. So what happens if I can't be that person? What happens if people perceive me differently and and it's the fear of that? I think that's stopping. Anyone, myself included, to ask for help sometimes. And So what you said about assessing yourself. And having like a barometer of understanding what's stopping you and what's potentially stopping others to do that, that's really important, second of all. Is also. I think there is an element of. Once you've learned. The practise to. Pause and you ask the other person what help do you need from me, or how can I support you? You need to take into account that it might be something that's stopping them from saying what they actually need. That's one thing. And we need to create the environment for them to feel safe enough to ask. 

Mike 

For help, people have. A lot of reason people have pride. People have independence, people have got, you know, all sorts of other factors that led them to that point and they might have an experience of being completely self-sufficient and. Showing the signs of coming to you asking for help may mean that they. Are slightly losing the grip of that independence of that ability to be self-sufficient, which I think it's very fundamental for a lot of people. 

Yuen 

Yeah. And I guess especially for those people, it will be a lot of banging junk. You said, you know, going up or? Whatever that took them to this point now, it might also be their way of survival. For example, this is my only way of. Enduring what I had growing up, so being independent and not relying on people is my way of protecting myself and not getting hurt. And so if I lose control of that, I don't know what's going to happen in the fear of the unknown. It's too big a step to take. 

Mike 

OK. So let me ask you about where do we set the battery? Where do we set the boundary of of her? I'm going to tell you a little story that happened when I was very young and. Well, very young. I want to say between primary and secondary school, OK, we went for hiking trip into the mountains. OK. It was back in Poland. Beautiful surroundings and amazing weather. Summer trek. Amazing. OK. And there was this auntie that took some toilet paper for a trip. OK. And you go hiking and you end up in a situation where you. Are far away. Let's say toilets OK comes in and says that you would expect anywhere else. OK. And then there was a group of about that might have been about eight or nine of us. OK. I don't know what people were eating, but the situation was that somebody needed. Toilet. So Auntie, let them have some toilet paper. Then somebody else needed toilets and she let them have toilet paper and then somebody else. And then when the time came where this auntie needed a toilet roll, she didn't have any. Where do you set the boundary? How do you? 

Yuen 

Welcome. Angry. That's a good analogy, actually, because this is as if, so back to the situation where where you say I'm the one who listens to people people's problem. Correct. And you are on full tank. First person tell you the difficulty and you take it personally. Right. Your tank is now 3/4 full after speaking to let's say I've spoken to three people. Today, and I've had a stressful day at work and I didn't sleep very well. You're now on 10% tank. And then you haven't really recovered yet. And then and then two more people are coming to speak to you. So where do you set the boundaries of that? 

Mike 

That that's the thing I mean should. Should she have withheld? Bless her. And what do you do? Do you know? I mean, do you give yourself all out to help others at your own cost? 

Yuen 

Call auntie. 

Mike 

And that's going to make you feel, I don't know, fulfilled, because for me it just varies that the people are different because the further question is what is the expectation of health? 

Yuen 

How do you? 

Mike 

Expect help from others. Is it? Well, she's got toilet rolls. She keeps it for herself. I'm gonna be stuck. But I'm in need now. 

Yuen 

And and I. Think there are so many factors. That's interesting too. They've into this for me. I think if I was hunting now, now that I knew I was not going to have thought if I would have kept some for. Yourself before letting it to anybody. I would have kept some for myself, but also, would you not think from the first person to the 4th person because the first person think ohh, there's quite a lot toilet paper? I will use it quite liberally. And then if you're the 4th or 5th person, you're like, Oh my, no pun intended. 

Mike 

Yeah, but you're still missing somebody. Is is still. You're still using somebody's, you know, courtesy. 

Yuen 

Yeah, yeah. But it's still. Ohh ****. There's not a lot left and when they. Use a bit less. But I think there's so much variables in this. If I was the first person you in the rollers. Horrible. I'll go. Oh, that's the lowest left I'm gonna be. Liberal and I wouldn't save on this, but if I'm the 5th person I'll go ohh sugar and you might need some I need. 

Mike 

Always try to be. 

Yuen 

To sleep some. 

Mike 

Mindful of people you know, helping and. 

Yuen 

People trying to pay. 

Mike 

For I'm always quite, you know, trying to be considerate and not overuse that because we going back to, you know, to these favours, because if you ask for help, you need to. Reciprocated somehow. 

Yuen 

Why? Why do you feel that you need to? 

Mike 

Because you feel the need to somebody's done something kind to you. Somebody went out their own way, OK? To support you in need. So you need to at least offer a return of, you know, some sort of help. Yeah. And people who will be listening to our podcast. For a long while, you might remember my health problems when I was very young, and then might remember also the person that helped me find the doctors back in Germany. And this was, you know, a selfless act person decided to help without. He was a very wealthy person, very, you know, busy. And yeah, he was absolutely nothing in it for them. He helped me. 

Yuen 

There's nothing in it for him is saying is. What you're saying? 

Mike 

And how do I other than say thank you, there's not a lot I can do. 

Yuen 

Yeah, but do you not believe in altruistic human nature at times that not everything has to be paid back? It might be, I don't know, who believe in Carl, might won't come back one way or another, or it might be. Which is how that person is. 

Mike 

This for me was an example of such thing because I don't know what else but you you always have like a natural idea, natural sort of need to be of help to others and not only on this receiving end. You know. And I think we always have to understand that. Always or there are situation in our lives where we are on the receiving as well as on the giving end of the situations, and I think that as much as we help others, others help us. It's very difficult to go through life being completely independent and we at times need somebody's help. And we should be able to accept that help. And I think we should be. Grateful for that help. 

Yuen 

So my view of it usually is more around grateful. Instead of owing A favour, because I think if I think. It will tie me out honestly, but also when you talk about that balance of receiving in giving, I don't know. But I've noticed that there are so much more people are on the giving end. And afraid of receiving. Or even afraid of asking. So we'll talk about that tank analogy. There's so many people who are the I've seen. That are really stretch in life to the different level, you know, to the level that we talk about whether you're sort of head above water or constantly bobbing in and out of the water, your head and there are more and more people that way for different reasons of course, but emotionally. That tank is not adding up. 

Mike 

So you're saying that people are more willing to give rather than in need of help? 

Yuen 

Rather than need accepting help asking and accepting help. 

Mike 

Except me. I agree that people are more likely to give help rather than to take help, but I I disagree because I think that there is more people in need of help than people who are actually giving help. I think that there's a lot. The people who, including us in many situations, you know that we give help on our terms when it's convenient to us when we're not stretching ourselves and that may not be the full extent of how that people need the full extent of care that we need. But then if we go beyond that. Border and go out the way. There's not going to leave a lot of us. 

Yuen 

Yeah, and this is setting boundaries for me. 

Mike 

Yeah, exactly. I mean and setting boundaries here, it's very important because in order for us to help more, we need to look after ourselves. So we had a comment somewhere on one of our socials that somebody said that disagreed with us about like this self compassion that we need to look after ourselves because somebody wants to be only of service to others and what they are, it doesn't really matter. And I think that people who can look after themselves and being open minded being self-conscious are in a more understanding position to help others and they can provide that help. Not at their own cost. I'm not that much of their cost. It's not that much of A burden to them. 

Yuen 

And it feels to me more of a marathon runner than a sprinter, because I don't think you can do only one. You can't just take care of yourself and not people around you, and you can't just take care of people around you and not yourself is a tricky balance. But I feel that if you take care of yourself like you said. In order to help people. It feels that you're able to help people longer and even better. 

Mike 

I think that if everybody I know is a hypothetical situation, but if everybody was willing to help, but only to a certain degree. And not front, you know, because it's very hard to define, you know, where the balance is because some people can label you as self. And again, you're going to come across things that it's called an opinion, OK, because then there is opinion of how do you help, how have you helped? And people have got different ideas of, you know, how helpful you might be for me in general caring and helping means that somebody is in a better position. Either happier or something achieved after seeing me then. Four, that means that I've sort of made a difference, and that's for me as well. That's how I accept help as well. If you know I'm stuck. OK, let's say with this writing essay. Yes, I was stuck. Whether I was able or not to ask for help. That's a separate story. But you helped me. You cared about what I was doing. And you got me beyond that point that. I was really stuck in and that for me was help and that for me that's how you showed your care. 

Yuen 

And again, it's that perception, isn't it? Because somebody else might say, well, you've just taken away his only chance of learning. 

Mike 

That's true, but then you know how much learning are you willing to provide to people before they going to? You know, become a little upset or really, really down as a result of it, because sometimes people don't know how to, you know, step out of this point where the stoke to move forward. 

Yuen 

So being the devil's advocate there, then, if they don't experience that and not learn the skills to step out of it, then if it happens again, they'll just slip back into that. Because they haven't built the skills and the technique and the resilience to overcome something like this. 

Mike 

Well, I agree. But you know, people sometimes are heading in the direction that may not benefit them in general, and I agree that it's all, you know, good to say that it's a hard lesson, you know, but at the time when they need their help to get to that point, that's when they really need you. They really need your care. They really need. That support, whether they are able to express their need or not, it's a different story. You know, teaching lessons. It's a different, completely different kettle of fish. Health and care is something for for me and and teaching people a lesson. It's a completely different thing. You can teach people a lesson and let people overcome their misgivings or whatever. Lack of skill in a more supportive way as well, don't you think? 

Yuen 

I guess then that highlights the inequality than for people who. You don't have anyone or any way to ask for help because they can be there asking for help, but there isn't anyone who is willing to help them. 

Mike 

But that's where we need to listen up. For those that need help. And this responsibility of those who are able to do it. Not at their own, you know, personal cost to drive them to the ground, but those who are, you know next to you neighbour that needs shopping, you know, help and caring is only as good as you actually going to do. Ever. Because they're willing to help is a bit different than you know, than actually delivering the help. 

Yuen 

I agree the action speaks a lot more than the word. Like I say to you, I really appreciate you when you move. Next time. I'll help you out. And if I just said it and not really do a lot, that's one thing. If I said it and then. Sending money to contribute to your delivery van and if I said it and actually came to you and. Help you pack? Which one do you think has the most impact? 

Mike 

Well, of course the personal touch. And there was another thing I was thinking about paying for somebody to help you, OK, because that's another, you know, the subject. I think that. If something is to help, like you're physically doing something for somebody saying thank you, you don't say thank you with the money because I don't think it's going to have the same impact as if you sort of offered somebody to help or help do something else for them. Going back to favours. 

Yuen 

Effort and time means a lot more than money cause it needs cheap. Ohh cheap. Yeah, yeah. 

Mike 

Easier, easier, easier. OK, so now we know it's not easy to help, and it's not easy to accept help. And it's not easy to care for others. And it's even harder to accept the care. So how about in our professional life? Because we care about our patients we care about? Our team members and how do we show that we? There. What are the boundaries? Or does it change? If you're doing something professionally? 

Yuen 

I don't think so. I think what you do personally helps you professionally as well. So for example, you've mentioned we've talked about the boundaries. If you do take the boundaries. Personally or you don't have the practise of doing that. It's going to be harder. For you to do it at work, because if you don't say no at all, it's harder for you to do at work because you just don't have the practise of doing it. 

Mike 

Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that. But I'm talking about, I know that the best patient is the conscious patient. The best patient is the one that comes and asks for help, but then a lot of people don't know that they need help. You know, that's why you have all the like, screening programmes and everything else that may come across people who. I really need in health need in a way, but then there are those people that will say ohh I'm not gonna bother the doctor. Ohh I've been feeling not very well for the past, you know, six months, but I think it might go. 

Yuen 

So there are two different ones one. Is what you've said to people who actually need help but not asking for help, and the 2nd is the type of patient who ask for help, but it's not the right help that. They need. So it can be all sorts for the second type of. Patient it can. Be their only way of seeking attention, reassurance and a whole host of other reasons. Or it can be addiction. And asking for help. In that sense, it's feeding into the. Addiction and also there are what you said. The first type of group where they need help. But they are not asking for it. So it is a tricky thing to manoeuvre around. 

Mike 

Because you want to care for people. I want to carry in my, you know, professional. When people come to me. But is it easier to say? Ohh I'm not an expert in this area. You need to see somebody who is or in a private life. You sort of find out more to help better. I'm not talking about, you know, necessarily like a health master or whatever it is, but do you think there is a difference between caring for people, professionalism at work? The caring elsewhere in her life, the neighbour. Family, you know. 

Yuen 

I guess it depends on who you are. Some people will have a bit more distance at work. Which one way or another sometimes do help, because if you don't have distant you take it very personally. And when things are a bit too close, like family member for example, it's sometimes for me jumps from the. Let me ask what sort of help you need to straight to action and it might not be what you need. And an argument happened because that really helped you. You, you didn't even say thank. You. But that's not the help that. Entered, for example, their situation. 

Mike 

Yeah. Well, and going with this thing really when obviously me being in a. Healthcare profession, the worst patients for us are our parents, who may not regard us as the partners for our discussion here. So we want to care about your parents, for example, but they do not listen to you. And my parents were rather resistance to the simple advice. I don't know. Don't get a flu job. Ohh I will. And when the doctor says when they are going to see, the doctor says. Go and get the slide up and they're going. To get the. Slide up. Do you know what I mean? 

Yuen 

Here is similar scenario when you're talking about the weight of family words compared to a friend's word. So for example, your family member who is a nurse or a GPS says do this. And you're like, yeah. Not gonna listen, but it was on the paper of your friend. Said something. Or suddenly, even though it's the same thing, it carries way more weight. And I guess I guess people who are from the healthcare world might have something similar, but it's just, I don't know why, but I guess the why it's a different topic. 

Mike 

Yeah, it is. It's like people I don't know, coming across some sort of advert on the TV or a newspaper on Internet. Something and they trust it more because they need that help. That said, medication promises OK and it might not be suitable for them, but they trust the advert more than the advice of a real person. That's a healthcare professional. When they come to me, for example, to this course. 

Yuen 

But do you? Do you not think then in this case the personal aspect because they know you makes it harder, like they can question you, they can not listen, essentially, or it's something that's a bit more distant. So for example, when they. 

Mike 

You check it as a gusto. 

Yuen 

Another clinician or or the Internet, they have a little bit of distance from that and so. 

Mike 

But do you think that this is like a gospel? 

Yuen 

And they think it is a gospel voice, no? 

Mike 

No, it's not. It's not, and we encourage people to have a discussion. I would encourage all people who want to look after themselves. Ah, listening to their bodies and they discuss about those problems with the health professionals. We want to care. But in order for us to care, we need to know. How to care best for you and you have to let us know. I think that care and health is such a humongous. Subjects that we're probably going to go back to it many, many times in the future, but for now I think that at least we have some fruitful thoughts on where do we set the boundaries, how do we treat the health and care in context of favours in context of, you know, in simple thank you enough. Or it's returning the favour, something that would be expected from the other party. Let us know what you think. Have a little thing about caring for others about health, because I think that there's always the potential for us to care a little bit better and also to care about us a little bit better. 

Yuen 

And what would you do? Would you have loaned that toilet paper? 

Mike 

That's a tricky one. OK, thank you very much for this week and we'll see. You next time. Bye bye. 

Speaker 

It's about time. 

Mike 

For Yuen Reads. 

Yuen 

We're talking about beekeeper of Aleppo, booked by Christy, left Terry. This unforgettable story puts a face to the Syrian war. When explores the beekeeper, Nuria, believe his name. And his blind wife, where they experienced physical, emotional and psychological trauma caused by war and family loss. And flawed by how fragile and resilient spirits can be, and it documents the horror of the war with the contrast of innocent civilians. My heart really goes out to them. When I was reading the book and I thought I'm only seeing nought point nought, nought, 1% of the tragedy and suffering of the people out there. And it helps me understand them. Just a tiny tiny bit more. 

Mike 

Thank you for listening to the Imperfect Luncheon podcast. 

Yuen 

Grow and learn. With us using our experience and flaws, just like we'd learn every day about ourselves, the best way to support us is to hit that. Follow or subscribe button. Thanks for your participation in our socials. We take to heart the ratings reviews. And comments. 

Mike 

The best way we can repay you is by making this podcast better and by reaching and inspiring more people like you, like us, until next time.