Memory vs AI: Who Remembers Better?

Is our memory able to compete with AI?
What impact AI may have on our lives?
Has it got already a lot to do with us?
Let's find out together.
My name is Mike.
It's Yuen.
Welcome to The Imperfect Clinician.
It's hard to forget.
We have things stuck in our head that either impacted us greatly or can be attached to
some sort of detail our brain hangs on to.
And we notice that when we grow up, we try to remember our first memory, and we then
sort of stick to it in a way, I guess.
And because we do occasionally come back to it, that's what appears to stay our first
remembered thing forever.
But often those memories, those very first memories, are influenced by stories of our
relatives, those who witnessed those events and those who had some sort of opinion on
them.
So it's not as clear cut as, yeah, this is the first thing I remember, because it could
have been impacted by others.
Do you remember your first memory effort, Yuen?
I do, actually.
And it is exactly like you said.
My memory was impacted by what I was told.
So whether it was a memory in my head from what I remembered, or whether I piece that
memory together based on what other people are saying, I'm not sure.
And I don't think I'm able to identify or separate those two.
So for me, the first memory was a quite traumatic one, actually.
When I was little, my sister, who is a couple of years younger than me, apparently she was
sitting on a baby chair on the dining table.
And I was playing with her, and then I pushed the baby chair backwards, and she fell.
And after falling, her little finger on one of her hands, the nail came off completely.
So we had to take her to A&E.
And I don't know whether I only remembered pulling the chair backwards, and everything
else felt like a blur, just bits of it that I remember.
And then my mom obviously just pieced the rest of it for me, because I don't know whether
I was too guilty about it.
But yeah, that was the first memory that I remember.
Well, in my case, I don't really remember that much when it comes to my early youth
until I'm about probably, I don't know, eight, nine, maybe some bits from when I was a little
bit younger than that.
But my very first memory, and again, I'm not quite sure how it was impacted by others,
was when I was actually two.
And I often wonder if it's possible to remember that early.
Or maybe it is a story told by the parents that we sort of decide to choose as our first
one ever.
I don't know.
But mine was about a bus, a toy bus that I got from a Romanian family when my parents
went with us on holidays with me, that wasn't my sister even planning.
And we went to the Romanian family, and I remember being in the home.
I don't know whether it was even a house or an apartment.
I remember a room.
I remember the beautifully crafted lace tablecloth.
There was an old cupboard, old wooden solid cupboard with hand-painted plates and jugs
inside.
I remember a picture on the wall.
Funny, I remember the frame, but I can't really remember what was on the picture.
There was a round carpet.
If I remember correctly, it was dark red.
And that bus that I got from them, I must still have somewhere, maybe back in Poland.
I remember from later that it was Majorette brand, and it had a white roof and a blue
bottom half.
And I'm not sure, was it an illusion?
Was it a story told by the parents that we sort of adopt as our first memory?
I don't know.
But I remember the room.
I remember the bus.
Probably some bits are mixed with the stories that we learned later about it.
But that sort of illusion, those memories, just shows us how well our memories define
us.
Do you remember more good things or bad things?
I think I remember a combination.
I've never thought of balancing or gauging one against another, whether I remember more
of one or not.
But when I started my journey to look at baggages in the past, like we mentioned in season one,
I noticed that the things that I held onto that I was not able to let go was more of
the negative memories or negative experiences.
I'm sure the good things shaped me in the process, but I want to say that more unpleasant
memory and perhaps how I learned to let go and how I bounce back from those shapes me
more.
It can be, for example, societal or parental expectation on results.
And when I think about those, I feel quite helpless at the time when I'm at that age.
But now I'm able to reflect with a little bit more years and more experience in my current
state, and I can always see one way or another good intention where it's coming from, even
though the impact might not be great on me then.
So for you, in that respect, the reflection on it is trying to explain what happened and
what was the reasoning behind it.
Is that how I read it?
And also, how does that change me?
So for example, with the expectation, how does it influence me as a person?
Because of that, it makes me more of a high achiever or striving to overachieve or to
be perfect all the time.
And when I'm able to understand those, I'm able to understand what is driving me now
and how can I improve on those because I don't want the fears to be in my driver's seat.
I would want purpose to be my driver's seat.
Okay, so you said about how do you feel about bad memories, that they sort of shaped you
and brought you where you are in a way.
But how do you feel about those good memories?
Good memories makes me feel quite warm and fuzzy.
It can be...
I'm not sure why it feels like I retain more of the bad memories or perhaps memories that
I need to work on instead of bad ones because I feel that they're still beneficial to me
in the long run once I've processed them.
The good ones make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, but I'm not sure whether it's due
to survival that we try to remember the bad ones so we can learn from it and not repeat
that pain again.
Yeah, I feel like I remember more of the good things.
I think those bad stories that happened, bad events on those that were really important,
of course, you can't completely erase them.
But I think my brain is trying to hide it under the blanket of all those good things,
those positive things.
And if I was in contact with somebody who wasn't only the most positive person in my
life, like, I don't know, friends, people who I've come across, I tend to remember
the good things about them.
I don't know, my brain is sort of putting like a fog over those worst events.
And if somebody mentions something, I say, oh, yeah, there was something like this.
Yeah, but my brain can't cling on to this.
Of course, there is lots of bad things that I remember, absolutely, like everybody.
But when discussing memory...
So in regards to that, I think it depends on my relationship with the person.
So looking back at my childhood and growing up, my relationship with my sister and my
brother has always been, because we're such a close-knit family or siblings, all the things
that we've done together, like partner in crime, how we help each other, how we talk
to each other about difficulties, how we feel like we are comrades sometimes in a
difficult situation.
And those really stayed with me.
And even though I am not able to speak to her very regularly now, because she's not
in the UK and the time difference, I feel that those good memories build the foundation
and keep us going.
And so when we speak now, it sometimes feels as if we've not not spoke for months.
But it's the same with the friends from your youth.
I mean, I have a close group of friends and I may not speak to them for months, because
sometimes just life goes on and sometimes you ring each other.
And it's like you've just seen them the day before, because there's this common
understanding and the language or the recollections, the common grounds that you have
between each other, that's what makes the memories that are positive prevail in that
respect.
Yeah, and I think it's a privilege to be able to find friends like this.
And I'm always grateful that I have friends from high school that we kept in touch.
Like you said, we don't speak to each other regularly, but when we do, it felt like we
weren't apart.
Yeah, true.
And I think that when you are in the forming years, so in your teenage years, those
friendships have got the least interest in them.
These are the friendships that we want to keep dear in our heart, because nobody was
depending on anybody else.
We just liked each other and we found common language that resonated between each other
and that's where we stay.
But when discussing memory, I often like to quote Lost Highway, a movie by David Lynch,
where the cop says, 'do you own a video camera?'
And Rene says, 'no, Fred hates them.'
And then Fred says, 'I like to remember things my own way.'
And a cop goes back to him and says, 'what do you mean by that?'
And Fred says, 'how I remembered them, not necessarily the way they happened.'
And I think this is the trick that memory does on us, is that how memory works, how
elusive it is.
Remember that it forms our experience and often defines our relationships with others
and other ideas.
And that got us thinking, can it be programmed?
It certainly is happening now when you look at AI, for example, the machine learning or
later expanded into deep learning.
Latest AI algorithm uses back propagation, which tests for errors from output to input.
So AI does not really make mistakes, not in our sense, not in our understanding.
It can be incorrectly programmed, but the algorithm is followed with, there's no regrets,
no hesitation.
So just get this.
If one AI system learns an answer to the problem, it can instantly share it with others.
We don't stand a chance to compete on that level.
Does artificial intelligence scare you?
What do you mean we don't stand a chance in what way?
I think it is all quite gloomy in that respect that when it comes to analyzing data, when
it comes to learning, we are never going to be as fast as a machine because we need
more time to reflect on things.
We need more time to position in our memory to make logical connections between, and we
are capable of more complexity, but that doesn't always equal the time in where the
conclusions can be drawn.
So I think when you break it down to digital or hard skills and analog skills that we've
mentioned in season one, perhaps the hard skills or the clinical side of things or the
digital part, AI can help.
But looking at implementing culture, working with people, motivating people, I think AI
is still quite far off from that.
And this is where us, whether in the healthcare sector or in any other sector, this is the
part where us as human beings then come together to understand collaboration, to understand
working with each other, to understand problem solving.
And I'm sure working closely with AI because it's inescapable.
It is part and parcel of our life.
It's here.
There's no merit in denying it.
I mean, it's here more often than we might even consider, but it all appears quite gloomy.
But one thing, just like you said, AI will take longer to learn is the true analog feelings,
the true sort of acoustic way of perceiving the world.
Does it provide hope for us?
Maybe, but we don't know us.
This is the area of absolutely astonishingly unbelievable progress that we do not quite
fully understand, nor can we understand the consequences or impact on us.
At the moment, we are still in control of the memory and there is less and less to remember
if you think about it.
So access to data becomes easier every day.
There's no need to remember dates, quotes, people, everything's got a diary, everything's
got, you know, you have your Wikipedia in your watch or whatever, you know, everything
is available.
You don't need translators anymore because you are able to use Google Translate or any
other engine that would help you communicate with others.
And we use it now on a daily basis.
Maybe not every day, but it's becoming more and more popular.
It makes finding relevant info harder, but also through that access, it gives great opportunity
for getting things right.
There's no need to remember, but one thing we need to learn is how to search for relevant
information.
So that is going to be a highly prized skill on how to plow through the information that's
going to be useful and how to present a relevant question to search engine will be a very,
very useful skill.
Euan, do we stand a chance with AI?
Yes, I don't think we should approach it with us versus AI.
It should be us working with AI.
I think so.
And you mentioned about presenting a relevant question to the search engine or posting question
on an AI app, for example.
You still get massive amounts of information from there.
So how do you possess the critical thinking to assess the information in front of you and
prioritize, and based on the data that you have received, maybe this can be programmed
further on, which one is reliable and which one isn't?
Because like you said, there is a vast amount of data out there.
How do you narrow it down and how do you make it relevant?
How do you pick it?
How to scour through it?
Absolutely.
That is, I think, where critical thinking comes to play.
So we are still able to do that.
Or is it all done for us?
I think we want to stay clear for now of a bigger discussion, what it means to humanity
and all the societies as such.
But in the hands of people of science, and clinicians happen to be them as well, willingly
or not, we still operate on digging through research, mining data, you could call it in
a way, and draw our own most reasonable conclusions.
But remember, despite all the data, we still use feelings to choose the answers and even
more feelings if we were to present it to others.
When looking at suggested predictive text provided by my phone after the sentence about
feelings, when I was typing in some prep to one of our episodes, first was compassion
on the list, and didn't even have to bother to remember what to write about.
I mean, is it scary?
Does it sound familiar to you?
Ewan, how do you see yourself competing with AI?
Because you said we should work with it.
And I believe that this would be the best course of action for the greater good of humanity.
But you know how working for greater good turns out in history.
It's usually misappropriated by people, organizations, nations to their own benefit and
advantage over the others.
How do you see opportunities for your team?
I think ensuring that everyone in the team, whether it's leaders or team members to have
a digital mindset is really important.
Everyone's consuming media at an enormous rate, faster than ever, I would like to say.
So tapping into those intelligence or data analytics and using those tools, because I
want to see those as tools.
That's why when I say working with AI, for that reason, to engage with people, engage
with patients, engage with population, increase awareness, increase understanding.
Convey the message.
Yeah, and allow conversations to happen in a more productive manner.
I think it's important for us to be equipped with that.
This feels like there is a link with our first ever episode in season one about analog skills.
Yeah, I think we're going into the feelings department here and those skills that we can
not necessarily read in the book about, those analog skills.
I think AI may not be yet ready to discuss the feelings in a meaningful and more importantly
authentic way.
And that gives us a temporary, at least temporary, advantage.
I think we can create believable emotions and concepts like optimism, feeling righteous,
compassion, which means that we can get better at them.
And this is where these analog skills can give us an edge in developing AI in the direction
that is going to support us.
So artificial intelligence can come across as a threat if you don't feel that you are
knowledgeable enough to utilize this tool.
And it's important to have that conversation as leaders to acknowledge any gap that you
have on maybe the fear of using them or the fear of not knowing.
And when you speak to your teams about it, it's really important to explore those fears
as well.
With any change, there will always be resistance, especially if the change is so drastic that
people can't see how they can work alongside it.
Providing support to the team members will be really important.
And before you can provide that support to the team members, you as a leader need to
brush up on your knowledge first.
And if you don't know where to go to seek help.
And so you don't need to know every single thing about AI.
You don't need to be a programmer.
You don't need to be in the nitty gritty of it, but you need to be adaptable.
You need to be showing flexibility.
And you also need to be showing vulnerability saying, I'm not sure about this, but I'll
go and find out.
Because then you're creating a safe space for colleagues around you who are working
with you to say, actually, it's fine to say that I don't know.
It's fine to say that I'm scared about it now, but we will work together towards a vision
that in X amount of time with Y amount of training and support, we will get there as
a team.
And this is what we will do with this AI tool.
We will improve population health as a baseline.
Do you think in that respect, are we going to treat AI more like a tool, like a very
sophisticated search engine or very sophisticated electronic assistant in that respect, a servant
to our purpose, or are we going to treat AI as a partner?
I would say the latter because you will need data from AI or any analytics tool that you're
using, whether you're in healthcare.
So I've mentioned population health.
You need data to give you that because where else can you find that information?
The data, when it comes to AI, we're talking about analyzing data and about providing you
with answers.
They won't be answers.
They will be guides.
And from these huge amounts of data that you have collected, you need to decide as a team,
which are your priority and how are you going to go about it?
And that means collaborative working with secondary care, with tertiary care, and these
are the things that AI can't do at the moment.
So working in partnership.
I think also it is a responsible thing from the leaders to care about the people, care
about how people approach the change and to provide support, like you mentioned, will
be vital in making sure that people understand where they can fit in in the new world.
And it is a new situation for all of us.
It's a big shift comparable to having a mobile phone or work on a computer all of a
sudden instead of on paper.
I think that this is where the new generation of people living just with AI will never
understand what it's like to have such a massive change ahead of them.
I would class myself as a generation that grew up analog but lives in a digital world.
So I have got a bit of a comparison of both, but newer generation, people younger, 20 years
younger than me, they never experienced, metaphorically speaking, exaggerating a bit pen and paper.
They've always been on the phone, on the computers or tablets.
So that is that scale of change, I think.
And as long as we use it to benefit others, I think it might be a progress.
I hope, I truly hope it is.
And I think it's normal for you as a leader to see defensiveness, to see people going
don't want to deal with it, or people who get defensive.
Don't take it personally.
It's just their fear talking.
It's not a response to you.
It's just a response to the change in the system.
And as long as you lead the conversation in a compassionate way, showing curiosity and
providing support, you are on the right track.
Yeah.
And if you want to find out more about change and preparing for change, we've got a double
episode in the beginning of this season, so you can always go back to it.
But yeah, what are your thoughts about AI?
How is it going to impact you?
Maybe you are already working with AI closely.
Yeah, absolutely.
There might be plenty of scenarios and we'll be very happy to understand more because this
is a new area where everybody's learning.
And I'm looking forward to that, not without reservations, but I hope that it all ends
out well.
I hope that AI is going to be smarter in generating positive outcomes than people with
bad intentions.
Thank you very much for staying with us today and until next week.
I first listened to his book as an audiobook and then bought a paper copy as I desperately
needed to make notes and sat with the words longer and hope that the wisdom will seep
into me somehow, but also allowed me to pause each time when I needed to process it, perhaps
to practice it in my life.
His monk experience, his reflection and lessons, combined with his exquisite speaking skills
or writing skills in this book, made everything felt more approachable and achievable.
I feel this is great for people who want to kickstart a journey of self-awareness with
an easy-to-follow guide.
Thank you for listening to the Imperfect Clinician podcast.
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