Setting ourselves for success

I'm honoured that you're joining us today, because by you listening, it makes a huge difference to our podcast.
In this episode, we talk about what is success and how do we set ourselves up for it.
It's Yuen.
And Mike. Welcome to The Imperfect Clinician.
How do we set ourselves for a success?
And actually, what the success is, would you reckon?
I think before we even get there, it is for me.
I feel it's quite important to reflect on the tick box exercise that we have in our life.
So let's say a medical student is working their way up to consultancy, nursing the same thing, same for pharmacist, either to consultant or chief pharmacist.
Are we doing it because it's the only way up?
Is there a lateral way upwards?
Or will there be plenty of detours instead of a linear preset?
Everyone's doing it.
I mean, it's like similar in anybody else's life.
Like, you know, you get a car, tick, get a house, tick, find a partner, tick, have a child or two or a dozen, whatever, how many you like.
And it's tick box exercise. How many do we do of those mindlessly?
Because this is, I don't know, some sort of expectation, some sort of genetic predisposition to setting those goals.
I wouldn't say it's genetic.
I think for me, it's more, so I did all of the tick box that you've mentioned previously very mindlessly because it's a norm.
It's, I think it's more societal and familial expectations that because you see all the time, people are talking about it all the time,
that seeps into every part of me that I didn't question any of it until I had the awareness to start questioning.
And for me, the first bit that I questioned was, why do you have to get married?
And then my mum's reaction was, because you'll be happy.
And I said, who said you can't be happy without getting married?
And then she said, just trust me on that.
And that was the end of the discussion.
So I'm curious whether you've done it previously.
I mean, we're saying it from a position from people who ticked a few boxes in their life.
It's probably a different perspective from people who are just starting.
You know, there's all big talk about younger generation not being able to get on the housing ladder to start, you know, having their own house and to progress in that way.
There's, you know, talk in other countries about social housing instead of, you know, owning all the properties.
There is all sorts of other concepts that appear here and there.
And it makes us, yeah, now we're reflecting on what we have achieved or, you know, what do you, you know, what success is.
I guess everybody has their own definition of success.
But it's surprising how everybody's definition of success.
It's sort of similar to the society expectations, to the pressures, because there is this constant, you know, pressure to succeed, pressure to succeed, to achieve something.
Everybody wants to have a better life.
And I think that's what we are starting off with.
That, you know, do we want to have a, our parents essentially want us to have a better life than them.
And to make sure that we, I don't know, fit into this mold set up by previous generations in a way.
I mean, there is some sort of progress and, you know, but it could be a tick box exercise done mindlessly.
Or maybe some people are doing the tick box exercise differently because they want, I don't know, financial security.
Because they feel safe as they did not have that when they were growing up, for example.
Or can you do the tick box exercise mindfully?
What do you reckon?
I guess if it's done mindfully, it's not called a tick box exercise.
But yes, I agree it can be done mindfully.
And my decision to question and then my choice after I question all of these should happen scenarios was then done mindfully.
Because I started to, I wouldn't say have the self-awareness.
I just wanted to rebel.
I just wanted to question things that I disagree with just so that I feel, I wanted a sense of control then.
I think that that's what triggered the questions.
But when I kept asking those questions and I didn't get any clarity in the answers, then it allowed me to,
I was then, it pivoted me, I guess, in the critical thinking because I was growing as a person.
And so I was just thinking, well, actually why?
Instead of asking the answer from people around me, I started asking me what would make me happy.
Yeah, but when did you start doing it?
How old were you?
What position were you?
I was doing that when I was in high school and then university, but more so in university.
You know, when you slowly get to, when you get older, that's always the conversation, not just from parents.
This is the most common question that any Chinese people listening would understand this.
Any party, any meals out with family and relatives, that's the first thing that they ask you.
Have you got a boyfriend yet?
And then if not, if you have, when are you getting married?
So the question that, the questions that they're asking are very tick box template as well,
which is why I say, even when you're young, you hear that around you all the time.
So you think, right, this is the first, second, third, fourth question.
This must be how the flow is.
Yeah, and you sort of take it as granted.
And, but is it, is it because it's easy to follow that path?
Or is it because you sort of like jump in the river and then just go with it?
You follow the path that was set up by people many years ago, probably many generations ago.
Do you just accept it as a path of life?
I get that, you know, for us to move forward, we need to have children to sustain the species.
I get that.
But we are, you know, thinking creatures.
But we probably don't need to, we can always adopt that.
What I'm trying to say is having a child, whether it's biologically your child or adopting a child,
it's, you know, it's not a one size fit all.
But your question about, what was your question?
I'm trying to think whether success is a matter of relative safety,
whether you sort of want to provide yourself with some sort of framework.
Sorry, it's come back.
Okay.
You say it's easier to go with the river.
And I would say, yes, it's much easier to go with the crowd than to go against it.
We had the experience, physical experience of going against the crowd before,
when we were in a crowd, massive crowd of people and how hard it is to go against the flow.
But also, when you conform, you have the societal comfort and validation.
And approval.
And approval.
Whereas if you go against, it can feel that you suddenly lose your sense of belonging.
Like you're battling the current, you know, because you're constantly questioned.
Yes.
Your way is questioned.
I think that with increased education, with increased openness, with increased access to information,
this is slowly beginning to change.
And I think that we are beginning to be a bit more inclusive, maybe, in terms of accepting other people's choices.
We can accept other choices for two reasons.
Either we truly believe that this is the best way for them, or we're just ignoring what they do.
And we're just completely focused just on ourselves and don't care about others.
So there are two ways of letting people who not necessarily want to conform into their lives.
Yeah.
And, you know, I'm also thinking whether being set for so-called success in the mainstream sort of definition.
Is it like a way of finding safety or relative safety so that I am safer than the people around me?
It's like a superficial way of saying that you're better than the people around me.
That I'm safer, that I'm, you know, just a tad above for our own personal feeling.
It's like, you know, amongst blind people, the one with one eye is a king.
Is there an end goal or is there no end goal?
Does there have to be an end goal?
Two parts to your question then I want to get to.
One, you've mentioned whether it's a superficial way.
Perhaps, I guess, depends on the driver of why the success, depending on what people's definition.
However, success can also be a defence because you feel less vulnerable if you have, I don't know, status.
If you have money, if you are not struggling.
So it can be superficial, depending on definition.
And it can be a shield amongst many that we use to protect ourselves.
And your question about whether there is an end goal or there is none.
We talked about this in our previous episodes of the podcast.
And it's what Simon Sinek's framing of the finite and infinite mindset.
So do we just get to the end point and then that's it?
There's no more?
The generator, you have like a goal generator up or something that then next what we're going to do this, that and the other.
Yeah. Or is it no end goal?
So you're playing an infinite game and you want to try to not just do it for yourself, but do it for the people, for the community.
And so if you aim for betterment, your own personal value, purpose, then I want to say there's never an end goal.
You just want to be better, help people around you get better. And it goes on.
Okay. So this is where we're heading into something that I would say that my success is being able to pursue both professional and personal desires to the level that warrants peace of mind and enjoyment.
Okay. So this, what you're talking about is all essentially underlined by purpose.
And that remains a frame or framework to our actions.
So there is a difference between the purpose and a success for me in that respect.
So the purpose is like a driver and a success is the destination in a way.
And I don't think that there always has to be a destination or that you're going to be happy and fulfilled when you reach the destination.
Whereas the purpose remains. It's something that underlines and underscores your driver.
Yeah. And can I suggest perhaps we see success as a by-product instead of, like you said, not a destination.
Just something that happened along the journey rather than I've got this, now I am very scared to lose it.
And I wonder what your thoughts around our current society, I guess, because we live in a microwave society.
The quicker it comes, the quicker it goes away. Everyone needs everything right away. It's one click away.
And the element of patience is draining.
Whether we see patients going into healthcare, whether we see consumer habits, there are some parallel pattern or similarities in the pattern.
I guess there is also element of us wanting to be seen by others, either for affirmation or self-accomplishment.
So I guess it's some level of seeking external validation.
Yeah, it is. In society, I think that you are right that this is a microwave society.
We expect things to get done quickly and we are getting things quicker than generations before.
And I think that there is a reason behind it. I think the reason behind it is the scarcity of time.
There are so many things, so many opportunities, so many things that we can, want to, and pursue.
Or things that are created, sometimes necessary, sometimes unnecessary problems that just have to be sorted.
That we want things to be done quickly. We want quicker deliveries. We want quicker things on demand.
We want immediate food. And everything seems to come to us quicker and easier.
There is a price for it. And I think the price is the lack of ability to rest.
And I think that this is what stops us from thinking about how we can find ourselves in the modern world.
I mean, we don't need everything that's around us. I mean, we've been forced to the consumer world and there is no way back.
I'm quite realistic about it. You can't just shoot the place down and go to the mountains and live in a forest.
It's very, very difficult. So somebody is going to tax you sooner or later.
But what about, so what you've mentioned, so the first thing that came to my head was instant gratification.
Because if you want something and you have to wait, you don't have that instant gratification.
And I guess social media or the current state of affairs, that fuels instant gratification.
There is also, I guess, a level of pain avoidance. So just like where the patients actually come in and they want a quick fix, a magic pill.
Yeah, you hope that the tablet's going to fix all the problems.
Yeah, but instead of sitting with the why and dealing with it long term, it's much easier to avoid the pain and just get something to solve the problem short term than to deal with it long term in a more holistic manner.
Medication can be one of it, but not using it as a quick slap of plaster on the wound.
You are absolutely right. I mean, when you look at things, let's say, I don't know, eczema, eczema is the end result of something that's going on in your body.
Okay, you want cream to sort it out, you want a tablet to fix it, and you're not looking at the things that have been potentially contributing to it.
Your lifestyle choices, I don't know, diet, rest, everything else.
And not using moisturizing emollients or moisturizing cream, so you're always using just the steroid to reduce the flare up.
Yeah, because you want things to go off quickly. It's like dealing with pain.
And I think that sort of gets into where we're looking for this fulfillment of our desire that it feels like we don't have time and we want everything now.
We want to get this instant gratification and I think that with regards to the external validation of the success, I don't think that it's always bad.
I think that it can provide a necessary sort of audit from others and it could be beneficial, but what we take from others depends on us.
And I think we should be clever about what we take that could improve us and what is something that's going to distract us from where we're going.
So when we're talking about instant gratification, I think that we are to some extent excused or forgiven that we are searching for it immediately because of the scarcity of time.
I mean, the only resource that we can't have more of is time and very often we need to focus on so many different things that the threshold for our desires and the needs just changes.
And we use it as a pain avoidance to make sure that we don't make choices or we make some random choices.
And I think that resilience to failure is very important, but also resilience to success.
I think we were talking about in one of the previous episodes, this is necessary to keep cool head and retain your purpose.
And what happens when you move the goalposts, you know, because you can set yourself the goalposts and then they get distracted.
Are you resilient to those changes?
This is life changes. You know, we were all planning wonderful holidays and then COVID struck.
We were all planning, I don't know, seeing family and then all of a sudden we can't afford to go because the energy bill went up because there is a war in Ukraine, because there are things that change.
So we have to be resilient.
I know of people that were completely shut down by the fact that the war broke out in Ukraine because they couldn't reconcile modern world with a war so close to them.
And I think this is very, very important to work on resilience to the world around us.
Does success in general or achieving the success stop you from growing?
I guess repeated success without failing might slow down growth because I always believe that we grow quicker around discomfort or when we fall because we have to learn to get back up again.
So I see less resilience in general when I notice, let's say a trainee has never had any experience of failing or having difficulties or having the experience to overcome a difficulty.
And so the fear of encountering the difficulty can be paralyzing, like what I've mentioned in our previous episodes.
So I came across this triangle of purpose. It mentioned about motivation, achievement and fulfilment.
And you have to have a right balance of all three.
And for me, it involves growth.
So if I'm only doing it because it's performative and it's not helping me learn something in return, the motivation subsides.
What do you think?
Yeah, if you look at every single one of those elements, motivation, achievement and fulfilment, if you have a lot, a lot, a lot of motivation, you're going to burn really quickly.
And you're just not going to achieve because you're going to be too excited.
And to achieve things, you need to be patient.
And that requires often a bit more grounding and being a bit settled in a way.
When it comes to, for example, extreme fulfilment, you will not appreciate the motivation and the achievement as such.
It's like winning a lottery.
You fulfilled your, I don't know, dreams that you're going to be rich, but then you're not prepared for it.
And you're not going to potentially, if you're not resilient enough, and it's very hard to become all of a sudden resilient when you win a fortune, for example.
When you haven't had the practice to do it previously.
When you haven't had experienced practice, when you haven't been surrounded by, when you weren't even considering that, you know.
And it's the same with achievement.
If you achieve something quickly, that may not mean that you are fulfilled because achieving may lead to more, you know, need to achieve.
And you may not be grateful enough. You may not appreciate that sufficiently.
And because you can achieve things very easily, your motivation can then suffer and you may not grow.
You know, the achievement is the big leverage for you to grow.
And there is a great opportunity and you can get things out of all of those.
You can grow with great motivation, with great achievement, fulfilment, but there has to be a balance, in my opinion.
Yeah. And you've mentioned about scarcity earlier on.
And I think at the end of the day, I have to keep check on whether my driver is a fear driven, scarcity driven, driven by other people's perception or my own purpose and agenda.
And I guess the easiest way to see is for me, if it feels tiring and draining, I would slow down.
I'll stop, reassess, reflect, and I might pivot in redefining success for me.
Because whatever that works for me will be different for Mike.
And again, will be different to you, the listener.
Do you think we get every detail ready to say, I'm ready to bring it on?
Or do we just dive in and convince ourselves, you know, things are going to be good.
So you, in a way, fake it till you make it. Yeah. Till you make it good.
I've tried to narrow it a few ways for myself, but I think for me, what works is I don't set up for what I want to do first, but how I want to feel for the day.
So there is this quote from Daniel Laporte that says, action should align with how you want to feel.
So I actually have in my room a sticky note with four different feelings for two different occasions.
If I want to feel clarity accomplished, once I've decided on that, I decide on the actions after.
And all of the time, 100% of the time when I do this, my actions then align with what I want to feel.
Whereas if I go in thinking, I just want to get this done, sometimes how I feel can be all over the place.
And I guess it's quite natural for me and I wonder whether it's the same thing for you.
For me, it's important to keep check because I know to self trust is the first thing I lose.
If I were to make a mistake, it just starts the self doubt cycle.
Do you have something similar?
Well, I think self doubt is bound to happen sooner or later because we were talking about that before,
that we assume things going wrong and we want to be risk averse.
And that's why we have to learn to assume best intentions, not only in others, but also in ourselves to some extent.
But I think that those moments of doubt, the setbacks, it just allows us to realign and reconsider.
It's just like a readjustment, but shouldn't distract us from pursuing what we want to pursue.
I think that's how I feel.
So now we're talking about setting for success.
So we talked about working on failures and those, as we know, are inevitable on our way.
And we always should consider them as opportunities to grow.
I mean, we talked about building resilience and that you can't really build it without making mistakes,
or it's very hard to do it that way.
So, but the question for me is, do we actually need to be successful?
Do you need to be successful?
What, to be happy?
Yeah. In order to be happy, do we need in our lives success?
I guess that it all depends on the definition you set for yourself.
In my opinion, you don't have to be successful to be happy.
In my opinion, you know, success sounds like an end game.
It's like a step towards, I would compare it into, for example, the money and work you can get for it.
If you want to get money, it's for me, the synonym of success.
Okay. If you want to get money, that's your success.
But that's not really matter. It matters what you do with it.
What, how you are for others around you and what you actually are going to do with this money.
This is how you spend your success that matters.
And in that respect, success as such, sounds to me like an end game,
but it doesn't ever say that we're ever going to reach the end game, if you define it that way.
We might head towards, you know, fulfilment and enjoyment,
and we might as well enjoy the ride and stop worrying about being successful.
We might just focus on those things around us that are within our control and they can be happy.
They can make us grateful and really appreciative of where we are.
And I think that's why in your opinion, the answer is no,
because that's your definition of success.
Perhaps for somebody else having success, meaning they can have a roof over their head.
It might mean that they are, they found a partner in a relationship
and they can both put in the work to keep it going.
It might be adopting a child.
It might be finally having the ability to buy a house for your parents or a holiday
because they haven't been able to afford that.
So I think it's so varied that if the definition of success comes out of love and service,
then it is crucial for their happiness.
All those things that you mentioned, consider others as well in it.
And I think that this is crucial that if you are considering personal success,
that might not necessarily be something that you would need to achieve to be happy.
Yes, I agree that all those could be, that all depends on the definition.
But for me, with my understanding of success, it's for me not the end of the road.
I think that there is more to it.
These are the things that you achieve along the way and you can still enjoy the ride.
Yeah, and I think how we perceive someone's success strongly affects our view of success.
So perhaps setting for success is actually a talk about purpose
and being prepared to face problems whilst we're trying to fight our battles.
I agree, and what you're talking about, providing a home for your parents,
the purpose is for safety, for security, and this is what I completely agree.
But this is not entirely synonymous for me with success.
Because that's your definition of success?
I guess so.
And for somebody else having the financial success so that they can buy,
send their parents away for a holiday and also go with them, that might be…
So for me, in that case, what they are doing with the success matters most.
So this is how you fulfill your purpose.
And that's what I'm talking about when I mean the difference between the success
and the purpose in your life.
And I guess it sounds like we're disagreeing.
Well, we actually agree with each other.
Yeah, it depends on how you look at things.
But I think it's important.
I think that's the great thing about us as people who discuss things,
that we have got a variety of opinions.
I'm not right, you're not right.
Who is right?
There are some rights and there are some wrongs with what we're saying for somebody else.
Somebody else might watch and say,
that's nothing to me because I completely disagree.
For me, a great success is to fly to the moon.
And that's fair enough.
And everybody has their own.
We're not saying that anybody's road to success or their purpose is right or wrong.
We're just wanting people to reflect on,
and I want to reflect as well on where I'm standing on my purpose,
where I'm standing on my future and what is actually of true value to me.
What about other forms of success, like successful parent?
What is one of those and who gets to decide that?
Personally, as a parent, I feel like my role in raising my children is like a passenger in a car,
that sometimes says to the driver, which is the child with their life,
have a look at that, avoid that.
There's something rattling in the car.
Oh, there appears to be someone in the boot of your car and is unhappy.
You are not necessarily in a driver position and you're just taking your child for a ride.
I see myself, for me, it's not a success that my child achieves something.
It's their success.
I don't want to take away from it.
Oh, they became, I don't know, doctors or lawyers because of me.
No, no, no, it's their success.
I am just hoping to be, because our children are quite young,
I'm hoping to be just maybe steering them off the dangers
and just putting things in their head that they might want to consider.
Nudging them.
Nudging them to at least consider certain things.
I don't want them to stop pursuing their dreams.
I think that we owe our children the trust and respect of what they're doing.
It shouldn't stop us from being the source of advice, should they need to get any.
But I think it's important to acknowledge that parents can have various different roles
that might support children.
I mean, is, for example, a stay-at-home parent ever considered to be successful?
Because it's an absolutely stellar work that stay-at-home parents are doing
and there's a lot of commitment and it often goes unnoticed
and it's very often dismissed by the society as not being, I don't know, productive or anything.
You stay at home with your children for no pay and no pension.
Do you know what I mean?
That's just a disastrous way of portraying certain things like that.
That is a very fair point because it can also be people who either don't have a choice
for a variety of reasons or it can be people who choose to be a stay-at-home parent
and their life can be defined by that role, whether it's for three months or a year or even longer.
And I think it's important for us to include those people too.
So thank you for reminding me, I guess.
We need to attempt to be more open to the possibility that people are so different
and this is how we become more inclusive and empathetic.
And less judgemental.
Agreed.
And that in total, in my opinion, leads us to a collective growth for the benefit of others.
When we are including others into our vision of the world, that makes us only richer by their experiences.
And I think not all of us are geniuses and not all of us can trailblaze completely new ideas
or be lucky enough to achieve some form of commonly understood success or fame.
So there is an African proverb that says, you want to go fast, go alone.
You want to go far, go with others.
I love that quote because that shows the strength of collective learning as well.
And I guess when we talk about success, the comparison and the sense of inferiority needs to be addressed
because it's a practice, especially when I have heard it all my life growing up
and then I'm now unlearning it by practicing not to do it to myself, nor to the children.
And it changes how I speak to myself internally and how I practice speaking with the kids in my head first
and then actually verbalizing it for later.
Because when we talk about the success and then how we perceive other people's success,
I think comparison always comes into play.
But the doubt of what if I'm not good enough still creeps up,
especially when you're seeing glossy example on social media when people are portraying their best part of life.
I guess in line with society's version of success, or if I hear from parents or relatives saying,
oh, have you heard about so and so?
They just bought the most expensive car.
Aren't they doing well in life?
And a younger version of me used to think, fine, I'll just have to buy a more expensive one.
And now I've said to my parents, a new car doesn't reflect how they are, how happy they are.
If they are, then it's great, but I'm not measuring my success nor my happiness with your yardstick.
Yeah, and it could be a driving force for success as well.
But when does it align with our own purpose?
I keep going back to the purpose because I think it's quite an important part of life for me
that probably gets mentioned not frequently enough.
And I think there's one more thing that we need to definitely put into this context.
There is a very big role of luck in success.
I mean, timing is important.
Timing place and who you are, where you are and how you are does matter and how you use this luck.
But it could be both encouraging for your personal growth, but it also can cause the motivation.
You achieve a success and then you settle on that and you live off this success till the end of your life.
And you live in a form of glory. It doesn't make you richer in a way.
But I think you need to help luck a bit in my opinion.
It's just you can't win the lottery without buying the ticket.
That's true. So without hard work, even with all the luck in the world, it doesn't really do a lot.
And there are so many parts of it which we wouldn't expand on this so far.
But things like connection, networking, luck, timing and all that we've mentioned.
What about fame? You're looking like it's all in the eye of the beholder, like beauty.
We cannot all be famous or recognizable and that is also okay.
I think that the whole message of this episode is that it's okay not to be successful.
We can still be happy, we can still follow our purpose and we can still live to the best of our ability
when we feel that not everything can be interesting about us.
But I think that everyone is interesting and I think that everyone has a story.
And this is the variety and the beauty of our differences and all should form this inclusive part of us
that grow on the experiences of others.
I have nothing better to say. Completely agree with that. Hands down.
So that's our discussion about success.
We are curious where you are. What do you think?
And whether you think, puh, success. I don't need that.
Or maybe you think I'm actually on the ladder. I'm doing the tick box exercise.
Or maybe you choose to do it a bit more mindfully. Let us know. Thank you all for listening.
Thank you for this week and straight after this part, remember there's Yuen Reads
and we're going straight to her now. Thank you.
It's about time for Yuen Reads.
Welcome to the segment of Yuen Reads.
So this book, it was out of stock and I wanted to buy it so I presume it's quite sought after.
So it's called The Seven Day Love Prescription by Dr John Gottman and Dr Julie Gottman.
It's a tiny book so for those of you who say I don't have enough time to read, fear not.
This is a very easily digestible book and it's broken down into seven days.
And there are pages that are folded. I know some of you cringes when I fold a page, Mike including.
But I just like to make marks like that and it shows that the book is well read and well loved.
He disagrees but never mind.
And it talks about what can you do every single day to reflect on how you are in your relationship
and what you can do and what questions to ask each other to just be curious.
Just some really, really random questions.
And we did that, Mike and I, and it was fun actually.
We always have a chat in the evenings but this gives it a little mix I guess.
Because we talk about a variety of things but usually when I bring a book out he's just like,
Well, what have we got now? I said, right, let's follow the questions and find out.
And I think in a relationship when you are really far along you might not be as curious as you were at the start
when you're like, I want to know everything about you, tell me this, tell me that.
Then as time goes by it becomes routine normalcy day to day, especially when you have children.
And this is a good reminder to ask about big questions like, what are your dreams?
Or little funny questions, I don't know.
What's your favourite movie? And a lot of other things.
And I think when we were talking we digressed a little bit and we started getting curious.
It's not the questions exactly but it's the setting I guess where we wanted to be curious about each other
and the question can help support us but we can always pivot to other questions that you really want to know about somebody
and it might be what they were saying, you're like, oh hold on, I didn't know that, tell me a bit more.
So this is good and I want to say it changes how we, I don't want to say it changes how we see each other
but it allowed us to pause and reflect on where we are now
and what can we do to be more emotionally available for each other.
And if we're not at that particular time how can we acknowledge that and do something about it?
I think this book was helpful, you'll have to ask Mike.
Thank you very much.
Bye for now and until next time.